Observations from my obedience class thru local retriever club - Page 3 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #21 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 07:23 PM
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Some comments on training based upon my own experience.

1. I quit my training group for 6 weeks just to address an obedience issue I had. My method was not what the drag and nag crowd was using.
2. Everyone at a training session/obedience class feels he is the final word on dog training.
3. I once saw a man at a training session place his dog next to a truck with dogs just to make him bark. As the dog barked he beat the dog. That is ignorance at its fullest. His attitude was once he beat the dog enough it would quiet down.
4. In my former training group the leader professed to be an expert. Newbies of course bought into this. Group leader is not a good trainer but has now "taught" several people to train hunt test dogs. The culture is perpetuated.
5. If you are new to any training group the assumption is that you know nothing. Then when you do something different that seems to confirm their suspicions.
6. What works for one dog may not work for another.
7. Several training styles exist.
8. Best response to someone's unwanted advice/criticism is "Thank you but I am already working with someone on this".
9. I keep an open mind---I can learn from anyone but I will judge what is best for my dog.

I follow these basic rules: TRAIN SMART and DO NO HARM.
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post #22 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 07:55 PM
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I agree with swampcollie on the dog is an employee in their venue. A dog that won't sit (the simplest thing in the world) is often being a jerk. I'm not going to say hey boo boo come on boy plllleeeese sit for me please please please. Come on now, I give my dog the best life ever. He is KING in this household, sleeps on the bed every night and is adored and pet on 24/7 by everyone. If he can't sit when I tell him to sit I'm not going to feel badly for getting on his butt. And I certainly won't give him a treat every time he sits either.

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post #23 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MillionsofPeaches View Post
I agree with swampcollie on the dog is an employee in their venue. A dog that won't sit (the simplest thing in the world) is often being a jerk. I'm not going to say hey boo boo come on boy plllleeeese sit for me please please please. Come on now, I give my dog the best life ever. He is KING in this household, sleeps on the bed every night and is adored and pet on 24/7 by everyone. If he can't sit when I tell him to sit I'm not going to feel badly for getting on his butt. And I certainly won't give him a treat every time he sits either.
There's a difference between expecting and TELLING the dog to do something and expecting obedience (assuming there isn't something physical going on).

In obedience, if a dog has slow sits or refuses to sit - it could mean he's sore. A lot of dogs who do both field and obedience come back to obedience after a field weekend very sore. It's why people will rest the dogs in cases like that, but some dogs do need adjustments before they pull back together again.

Other thing is not using treats and making the dogs do something vs asking/begging/bribing = is OK by me. At a certain point, you do have to lay down the law and make the dog do something if he's avoiding it or goofing around.

That's not the same thing as what some people do where they are very hard and rough with the dogs. It's yanking the dogs off their feet, it's throwing them, is throttling them, it's beating them, it's turning up collars extra high to zap them, and other things designed to break the dogs so they are super geared to obey with fear/pain avoidance being a huge motivating factor to work harder. That's the kind of stuff I have a problem with. And I'm somebody who is very middle ground and believes in balanced training. I'm not positive fluff.

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post #24 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Megora View Post
That's not the same thing as what some people do where they are very hard and rough with the dogs. It's yanking the dogs off their feet, it's throwing them, is throttling them, it's beating them, it's turning up collars extra high to zap them, and other things designed to break the dogs so they are super geared to obey with fear/pain avoidance being a huge motivating factor to work harder. That's the kind of stuff I have a problem with. And I'm somebody who is very middle ground and believes in balanced training. I'm not positive fluff.

Ask any pro out there, if you treat a field golden like that...you will get bit. Goldens don't play.

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post #25 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 09:30 PM
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Ask any pro out there, if you treat a field golden like that...you will get bit. Goldens don't play.
OOHH ain't that the truth.

If you're being fair, Goldens will accept a lot of pressure and bounce right back with a wagging tail. If you're being unfair and apply inappropriate pressure, be ready to have holes put in you.

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post #26 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gdgli View Post
Some comments on training based upon my own experience.

1. I quit my training group for 6 weeks just to address an obedience issue I had. My method was not what the drag and nag crowd was using.
2. Everyone at a training session/obedience class feels he is the final word on dog training.
3. I once saw a man at a training session place his dog next to a truck with dogs just to make him bark. As the dog barked he beat the dog. That is ignorance at its fullest. His attitude was once he beat the dog enough it would quiet down.
4. In my former training group the leader professed to be an expert. Newbies of course bought into this. Group leader is not a good trainer but has now "taught" several people to train hunt test dogs. The culture is perpetuated.
5. If you are new to any training group the assumption is that you know nothing. Then when you do something different that seems to confirm their suspicions.
6. What works for one dog may not work for another.
7. Several training styles exist.
8. Best response to someone's unwanted advice/criticism is "Thank you but I am already working with someone on this".
9. I keep an open mind---I can learn from anyone but I will judge what is best for my dog.

I follow these basic rules: TRAIN SMART and DO NO HARM.
What a great list, thanks! That last quote will be one I remember!
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post #27 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:26 PM
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"I do it because the dog loves it"
"He was bred to do it" (usually about a conformation dog)
"Spending time with my dog"

All things said in pursuit of Junior
God love it -- we've ALL been there -- that first Junior dog -- and it was a TON OF FUN
I wish I were that naively enthusiastic about field work again

Anywhere you go where a broad spectrum of people are training their dogs, regardless of the venue, you're going to have a range of terrific to terrible.
Just last week I did drop-in obedience run throughs. I was agog at how terrible some of these people were. From mean to their dog to just totally clueless. Oh well. I'm there to train my dog, not to critique them. Take what's valuable for you and leave the rest.

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post #28 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MillionsofPeaches View Post
I agree with swampcollie on the dog is an employee in their venue. A dog that won't sit (the simplest thing in the world) is often being a jerk. I'm not going to say hey boo boo come on boy plllleeeese sit for me please please please. Come on now, I give my dog the best life ever. He is KING in this household, sleeps on the bed every night and is adored and pet on 24/7 by everyone. If he can't sit when I tell him to sit I'm not going to feel badly for getting on his butt. And I certainly won't give him a treat every time he sits either.
Oh I have no issues with expecting a dog to obey once he knows the command, and I'm not a purely positive trainer (if such a thing exists). My difference in training style from the group was with how they were training a dog to LEARN a command, mainly those that had puppies in the group. I prefer to reward a dog when in the learning stage (so he knows when he is doing the right thing), then when I feel I have generalized the behavior enough I use start rewarding on a less predictable schedule until eventually we get to the point where he can perform multiple exercises in a row and only be rewarded at the end. But I'll keep him guessing

Again that is just my preference and what works for my dog, I merely stated my observations from the group. I'm not going to go into the class and tell people how to train their dog, that is definitely not my place. I just wanted to hear if other people experienced the same things I did when they first went to club trainings and it sounds like the answer is yes.

Last edited by myluckypenny; 01-16-2018 at 10:34 PM.
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post #29 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K9-Design View Post
"I do it because the dog loves it"
"He was bred to do it" (usually about a conformation dog)
"Spending time with my dog"

All things said in pursuit of Junior
God love it -- we've ALL been there -- that first Junior dog -- and it was a TON OF FUN
I wish I were that naively enthusiastic about field work again

Anywhere you go where a broad spectrum of people are training their dogs, regardless of the venue, you're going to have a range of terrific to terrible.
Just last week I did drop-in obedience run throughs. I was agog at how terrible some of these people were. From mean to their dog to just totally clueless. Oh well. I'm there to train my dog, not to critique them. Take what's valuable for you and leave the rest.
Although this reads kind of vaguely insulting and condescending, it's true. I'm not in this to do field trials, I don't have the right dog for that. I got this dog for obedience and conformation, but just happened to take a fun detour into field work. I won't apologize for being a newbie.
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post #30 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:54 PM
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No need to apologize, and it wasn't an insult, seriously I wish I could stay in that phase forever. You don't know what you don't know and anything your dog does is pretty great. It's how I felt with my first Junior dog. Once you start learning all the pitfalls, it's all downhill from there
You will learn more about dog training as you advance in field work than in any other venue.
Everyone has to start somewhere!
Just this year I bought a motorcycle and taught myself to ride, having never even been on or near one before. I'm apologetically naive and embrace my newbie-ness to it. It's liberating to try something new and realize you may not be great at it for a long time to come.
Seriously, the people you spoke of sound like total yahoos, and yes, you do run into that all the time in field work, mainly the lower levels. Fact of the matter is, 99% of the yahoos have field bred labradors. Labs are great. They are so gung ho and biddable, you can be the WORLD'S WORST TRAINER and commit sins that would completely F up any other dog, that lab shakes it off and comes back for more. They're incredibly resilient. You don't have to be careful, you don't even have to be good. BIG margin of error. That is not to say all lab trainers are like this, of course not, and the top echelon of field trainers have labs that are amazing, truly finesse trained animals with an incredible amount of detail and precision put into their training. But that's why they rose to the top....they are good trainers regardless of the breed or sport. If those same people had bought a border collie way back in the day, they'd probably be at a herding trial winning at the top level there, too.

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing CDX MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix" CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
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