Observations from my obedience class thru local retriever club - Page 2 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 06:59 PM
aka Shelby
 
MillionsofPeaches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Thanks: 1,731
Thanked 2,020 Times in 989 Posts
it doesn't sound like I would waste my time training Ob with these people if you are already in an OB group. Can you do that and still be able to train the field/hunt portion of things?

Here's the deal. I don't know why anyone would be like that with a five month puppy for sure but field dogs are bred a bit differently than conformation dogs and then again each one of those dogs is different in personality and would need individual training. I used to think that the only way to train was very motivational with treats and all that jazz while I was training my conformation golden retrievers. Then I got a field bred golden and now I have a field bred lab. These dogs get too "high" on a constant level of positive reinforcement and treats. Especially my lab. Here is what I found which surprised me. While they are young I do a lot of happy motivational training but after a few months (like 4) I started realizing they were so excited to train with me and do any type of work (since they are bred to work so much) that when I said anything other than a flat good dog they couldn't even concentrate at the task at hand. Bring food into the picture and they couldn't focus at all! It was just too much stimulation for those particular dos. After observing this I waited on any "big" positive reeinforcement until the whole thing was over. My most recent dog, who is just ten months old, did SO MUCH better without any stimulation from me except a simple good. And she is a complete lover of OB and field training and a complete joy to work with but give her too much and she loses her mind.

The point I'm trying to make is (and from what you are describing these people didn't sound so great) don't judge a trainer based on how fun and motivational you think they should be. Each dog needs a different style. My two older conformation goldens really hated to train and I had to work really, really hard to motivate them. Ob they would do for constant treats but stop the treats and it was a pain, they didn't work for free. Hunt training was hooting and hollering and telling them good dog 24/7 because they hated to pick up ducks and they were so slow. I honestly thought at the time that is how you trained all dogs to be a good trainer. Now I realize that is how you train SOME dogs.

And one last thing. Hunt test training and field dog training are completely different games. Not many people understand that. Ive had people think a derby is the equivalent of a junior hunt test! Some people will say they are field training their dogs while in actuality they are training for hunt tests. It really is misleading when they say that. There is such a HUGE difference. Field training takes a lot of precision and a lot of constant training. I'm not saying this to devalue hunt test training because it also can be demanding but it is just not the same. Often times dogs that couldn't handle field training move on to hunt and do just fine with the shorter distances and less precision around the guns and so forth. And this isn't about pressure. It takes a special kind of trainer that can train a field competitor and do it with only treats and rainbows. I have yet to see one personally but I know they probably exist. It would be hard to run out and give a dog a treat at 400 yards or a big raw raw session at the end and the dog gets so jazzed up he goes nuts returning the bird.

I couldn't pass judgement on a single person you trained with based on what you described though it does sound like they were unnessarliy rough. I would need to see the dog, the people, and the venue they were training for before I could pass judgement on their techniques.

MillionsofPeaches is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MillionsofPeaches For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (01-17-2018)
post #12 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 08:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
FosterGolden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: West Coast
Posts: 553
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Thanks: 232
Thanked 388 Times in 219 Posts
I had similar experiences with the local hunt test crew. The general attitude was that the dogs were going to take over the world so there was no choice but to show them who was boss at all times. The dogs were always trying to get one over on ya don't you know? It's like people think dogs are inherently evil or something and the fact that they made a mistake or just don't quite understand never dawned on them. A dog makes a mistake? He's flipping you the paw -- burn him. A dog whines in the blind? Hit it with a whiffle bat. A dog is pulling? Tell it to heel 20 times before you get REALLY mad and lay on the e-collar button until he gives a good scream. Dog won't sit? Hit it and then when it lays down afraid and submissive, pull it back up by the ear into sit position. One guy's dog failed a hunt test and he took it back to the car and punched it. He got turned into AKC and fined and he keeps the letter framed in his house. He's so proud of it; I've heard the story twice. Don't get me wrong, there were a few good eggs, but these experiences were enough to turn me off of field work (we do agility now instead). I get pretty heated about this stuff! While I am a +R trainer, if someone is fair and has good timing and is training their dog the way the dog needs to be trained, excellent! But the egos have really just got to go! I did a drop in obedience class with my old trainer who agreed to let me do my thing and I kid you not, the same dogs were in the class working on the same problems...three years later! And one woman in the class was so mean to her dog, her dog -- a 9 month old puppy -- would run to other people and hide under chairs and cower so the woman put a prong collar on her. I never went back.
FosterGolden is offline  
post #13 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 09:31 PM
Jay S.
 
Sweese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Little Elm, TX
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Thanks: 133
Thanked 147 Times in 46 Posts
In over 30 years of training gun dogs I have never used treats. I am the guy in the example that wrestles with the dog and offers up loads of praise. A big problem I see out there is that most dog owners and trainers are in a hurry and not patient. Be patient, offer lots of praise for those desired actions and firm correction for those actions that a dog has learned but chose to disobey. Make sure your dog has mastered one thing before moving on to the next. When you screw up, back up and spend a bit more time fixing it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	JC-95 rev-2.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	209.6 KB
ID:	777282  

Jay
Photographer Afield
Sweese is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Sweese For This Useful Post:
myluckypenny (01-16-2018)
post #14 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
Jamie
 
myluckypenny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Thanks: 357
Thanked 450 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweese View Post
In over 30 years of training gun dogs I have never used treats. I am the guy in the example that wrestles with the dog and offers up loads of praise. A big problem I see out there is that most dog owners and trainers are in a hurry and not patient. Be patient, offer lots of praise for those desired actions and firm correction for those actions that a dog has learned but chose to disobey. Make sure your dog has mastered one thing before moving on to the next. When you screw up, back up and spend a bit more time fixing it.
First of all, I love that picture. I definitely don't have an issue with not using treats, it just seemed like it that particular environment it may have been useful since it was sooo high distraction (there were 19 dogs in a training center). I think you really hit the nail on the head on the patience, there were several that simply lost all patience and that's when things deteriorated.
myluckypenny is offline  
post #15 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
Jamie
 
myluckypenny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Thanks: 357
Thanked 450 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsofPeaches View Post
Here's the deal. I don't know why anyone would be like that with a five month puppy for sure but field dogs are bred a bit differently than conformation dogs and then again each one of those dogs is different in personality and would need individual training.
You makes some excellent points and that's why I posted, because I wanted to get some other perspectives. My conformation boy is actually my second golden, my first is field lines (she's 2.5 yrs old). I love seeing the differences in them. My field girl is super toy motivated, tug and fetch are the best things in the world to her, she's a spitfire. Now my boy thinks food trumps all (besides birds). They are both super easy to train, and have a ton of enthusiasm, but my girl is actually more of a thinker/independent and has energy for days! She's my nosework/tracking dog and she's amazing at it, my SAR friends think I could certify her easily. Surprisingly though, my conformation boy is way more into birds than she is. That could definitely be because he was introduced at the young age and she wasn't (as I know her littermate is nuts for birds). I get each dog is different and the training should vary for each.

Also, I know the difference between field trials/hunt tests and I think only 2 of the people in that group do field trials, and they would be the first group I described.
myluckypenny is offline  
post #16 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
Jamie
 
myluckypenny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Thanks: 357
Thanked 450 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by FosterGolden View Post
The general attitude was that the dogs were going to take over the world so there was no choice but to show them who was boss at all times. The dogs were always trying to get one over on ya don't you know? It's like people think dogs are inherently evil or something and the fact that they made a mistake or just don't quite understand never dawned on them. A dog makes a mistake? He's flipping you the paw -- burn him. A dog whines in the blind? Hit it with a whiffle bat. A dog is pulling? Tell it to heel 20 times before you get REALLY mad and lay on the e-collar button until he gives a good scream. Dog won't sit? Hit it and then when it lays down afraid and submissive, pull it back up by the ear into sit position.
YES! This is the attitude of the middle group I described. Just seemed like a lot of ego in some of those people. I think they were in the minority, but they definitely can give the whole group a bad name.
myluckypenny is offline  
post #17 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 01:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
FosterGolden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: West Coast
Posts: 553
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Thanks: 232
Thanked 388 Times in 219 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by myluckypenny View Post
YES! This is the attitude of the middle group I described. Just seemed like a lot of ego in some of those people. I think they were in the minority, but they definitely can give the whole group a bad name.

There is a certain group of people that think dogs are made to be broken, dominance, etc. and to be fair, many of these people reached their goals with these dogs many times over, so they have received positive reinforcement from their actions and, like our dogs, when they have been rewarded for something they will continue to do it. You see all kinds of training techniques from "pure positive" (not really sure exactly what that is, but trying to illustrate one extreme) all the way to people being very unfair and downright bullying their dogs, and then everything in between, and many of these dogs are successful in regards to titles. Dogs are amazing creatures who are forgiving, resilient and often learn in spite of us and not because of us.
FosterGolden is offline  
post #18 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 01:32 PM
Grumpy Old Man
 
Swampcollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,506
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Thanks: 309
Thanked 4,201 Times in 1,701 Posts
The steps and sequence in training a Field Dog is the same no matter whether you're training a dog for Trial, Hunt Test or Hunting. The big difference is in the owner or handlers needs, goals and expectations. This is further complicated by the ability to learn by each individual dog and or handler.

I see this variability every single week during the club training season with various club members. The needs and expectations of those seeking to run in the Open are usually very different from those people who simply want a dog to flush a pheasant and retrieve a single shot bird.

Different goals for different people. Some have no intention whatsoever to teach and train a handling dog. This varies greatly from those wanting to run Hunt Tests or Field Trials. The basic gun dog owner has a hard time seeing the need to invest the time and effort required to teach a handling dog while the Test or Trial owner can't see having a dog that doesn't have those skills (trained abilities).

"You own what you condone." ~ Mike Lardy

Last edited by Swampcollie; 01-16-2018 at 01:40 PM.
Swampcollie is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Swampcollie For This Useful Post:
myluckypenny (01-16-2018)
post #19 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 01:59 PM
Grumpy Old Man
 
Swampcollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,506
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Thanks: 309
Thanked 4,201 Times in 1,701 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by FosterGolden View Post
There is a certain group of people that think dogs are made to be broken, dominance, etc. and to be fair, many of these people reached their goals with these dogs many times over, so they have received positive reinforcement from their actions and, like our dogs, when they have been rewarded for something they will continue to do it. You see all kinds of training techniques from "pure positive" (not really sure exactly what that is, but trying to illustrate one extreme) all the way to people being very unfair and downright bullying their dogs, and then everything in between, and many of these dogs are successful in regards to titles. Dogs are amazing creatures who are forgiving, resilient and often learn in spite of us and not because of us.
There are some less than stellar owners/trainers around, that is true.

But don't forget Field Work is a JOB. While performing that role the dog is not a pet, it is an employee. There is work to be done and the dog is expected to do it, to the best level it has been trained. That's why the dog is there.

"You own what you condone." ~ Mike Lardy
Swampcollie is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Swampcollie For This Useful Post:
MillionsofPeaches (01-16-2018)
post #20 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
Jamie
 
myluckypenny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Thanks: 357
Thanked 450 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampcollie View Post
There are some less than stellar owners/trainers around, that is true.

But don't forget Field Work is a JOB. While performing that role the dog is not a pet, it is an employee. There is work to be done and the dog is expected to do it, to the best level it has been trained. That's why the dog is there.
I think that perspective depends on the person. For instance, I'm doing field work because my dog loves it and its fun to train as its what the dog was initially bred for. The first priority for me is a love of training/spending time with my dog. This has had a side effect of me wanting to start hunting, something I never had an interest in before. For some people its the opposite (I would say a majority of the hunting people), they got the dog to help them achieve that first passion of hunting in a more efficient manner. My perspective/priority is slightly different so I would anticipate my training methods to vary slightly.
myluckypenny is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome