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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alaska7133 View Post
I was double and triple whistling on Saturday and got yelled at. “Every whistle is counted by the judge”. I thought I should hit the whistle and collar as often as necessary if Riot looked away. It just seemed the natural thing to do. I was trying really hard to make sure I had his full attention before sending. He’s very impatient and wants to auto cast.
Tell training partners to get a clue. You're TRAINING -- NOT TESTING!!!!
OK if you "double whistle" for a regular stop to cast during a hunt test (or trial) ---- you're making the judge judge. But here's how they're going to judge it. If you toot-toot for every sit, and the dog is compliant and under control and makes progress to the blind, then guess what you're good to go because who are we to tell you how to train your dog? Maybe you taught him that two toots means sit. BUT if you double whistle as a desperation move to try to simulate a sit-nick-sit, you're blind is probably going down the tubes. Also, some VERY SMART handlers know when their dog is at the MOMENT OF TRUTH in a TEST, will sit them, gain the dog's attention, blow the whistle again, then cast. It's gaining control. It's making the dog really focus before you give that do-or-die cast. That's pretty smart handling. Now, I did get into an argument with an experienced hunt test judge, AT a judging seminar, who was determined to call that second whistle a CAST REFUSAL --- which is insane. The handler didn't cast the dog yet so how could he refuse it? Jerry Mann agreed with me and said there is nothing in the rule books about a double whistle and it certainly isn't a cast refusal. Also note, this particular judge has NEVER trained a dog start to finish to any level...

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He also looks around trying to see the bumper or marker if there is one.
Nope, he's blowing you off. EVERY dog who does this habitually has an owner who lives on excuses like "he's looking for the blind stake." No -- he can't stand your wimpy, tentative casts and wants to go self employed...running FOR you is an irritant to him and he'd just rather do things on his own. TOOT-NICK is what you get for that.

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing UD MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix"
BISS GCH Can. CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Nope, he's blowing you off. EVERY dog who does this habitually has an owner who lives on excuses like "he's looking for the blind stake." No -- he can't stand your wimpy, tentative casts and wants to go self employed...running FOR you is an irritant to him and he'd just rather do things on his own. TOOT-NICK is what you get for that.
Yep he’s blowing me off. That’s why I hit the whistle or sit nick sit. Depends on how bad the infraction was. If he just was looking away at a bird or something that caught his attention, I might just do another whistle. If he’s looking around for a pile of bumpers, sit nic sit, and another whistle just for good measure. I want his attention before I send him again. He’s all that now that he’s 2. So keep him slowed down and not rolling is a bit hard to do at times. He likes to drive the truck.

It’s been interesting hearing all the opinions on whether you can get dropped or not for double whistling. If it’s interpreted as a cast refusal, then it makes sense to get dropped.

As a newbie it’s all a big learning curve for me. I trained Lucy for running blinds. Some days she’s beautiful and handles perfectly and the next day she doesn’t know who the hell you are (she’s not a 2 day dog, she’s a 1 day dog). Riot is a completely different dog. He’s smart and he wants to please me, but he wants to get there really fast...

P.S. What I mean by the 2 day dog comment is, Lucy is good for 1 day only. Next day she blows you off and doesn’t care to be a partner. First days are almost always good, second days are terrible. So I call her a 1 day dog...


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 09:09 PM
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I would have little tolerance for not looking at you after a sit whistle with a dog like Riot. Really, would you accept if he looked away from you during heeling because a bird flew by? He should have laser focused vision. Don't make excuses for him being naughty

Yeah, Bally is good for two days hard training. Day three his brain is toast. Now I can train lightweight stuff for literally weeks in a row but if it's big setups or groups, two days is what I get.

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing UD MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix"
BISS GCH Can. CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampcollie View Post
Handler error.

Handler error happens at all levels of testing and competition from Junior to the last series of the National Open. People make mistakes, usually because they acted quickly without thinking first.


In a Hunt Test there are a few different ways a double whistle can get you in trouble.

If it's to stop the dog during a walk up, you're DQ'd by rule. You can only give the command to sit ONCE either verbally or by whistle, not both. So if that was the situation, leash up your dog you're going home.

During the running of a blind, a double whistle can be interpreted by the judge as the handler just told him/her the dog refused the command given, so the command was repeated again by the handler. As previously mentioned Judges count Refusals. Do this enough times in a Master, and you're going home early.

The last interpretation might be regarded as the performance was so loose that the double commands were finally regarded as training on the grounds. (We're here to Test the dogs today, not train dogs.) This is kind of BS if the judges do this, but I get it if it's a large test with limited daylight.

That is exactly what happened. Also a novice handler who was confused as to why the dog all of a sudden would not sit all the way. Today, a 42 dog MH test I would not consider it a large test.


Rose Bud - Golden Retriever (June 2012)
Darcy Bud - Flat Coated Retriever (June 2009)
Belle Bud - Golden Retriever (December 2014)
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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 12:28 PM
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Have you been able to Stacey? How’s it going?
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Have you been able to Stacey? How’s it going?
It's been interesting the last few weeks. I got the camera out and had a friend video me and Riot on a couple of cold blinds. I won't share it here, it was quite bad. Sooo a friend with many years of experience in the field trial game is working with me to correct our issues.
Stage 1
1. Go back to double T. But do not run to the side piles, only to the back pile.
2. If the dog goes to the side piles, No, Here, move up, resend. Do not cast from the whistle sit, just recall and resend.
3. Run the dog to the back pile 6-8 times. Only from your side, no casting.
4. Do this drill 5 to 8 sessions until the dog is perfect and doesn't go to the side piles.
Stage 2
5. Then start casting to the pile. Whistle sit midway, then cast to the back pile.
6. Casting only to the back pile several sessions.
7. Once he's perfect, then move on to casting to side piles.
Stage 3
8. When casting to side piles, only cast to side 1 out of 3 casts.
9. No cold blinds again until his obedience is cleaned up.

Riot needs to learn I'm driving the bus. Riot knows double T, the issue isn't teaching him double T, it's about getting him to learn that I'm in charge. This drill is all about me being in control. It's hard to back up this far, but he continued to degrade on his cold blinds to the point that he didn't need me at all.

So far he has taken 2 weeks to run this drill in Stage 1. Only once without going to a side pile when I send him from my side. That's a lot of No, Here, resend. I am not even casting him yet. Sunday was his first day doing the drill clean. Yesterday (Monday), he was back to his old tricks of running to a side pile. Yesterday he even blew off my sit whistle and picked up the bumper anyway. Which of course he got some collar response from me. He sat next to the pile and I took the bumper and threw it back on the pile. He didn't do it again. Looks like we will be in Stage 1 for awhile longer. He's a lot of dog and I need to be patient and not move ahead too quickly.

I was told the idea is that the dog has to make mistakes and you have to correct the dog in order for this drill to work.


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 02:35 PM
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Great update! Sounds like you are moving toward solid ground.
Flyer is on his own tough love regiment right now. This boy is determined to make me a better handler.
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