Purely Positive vs. Force/Pressure - Page 4 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #31 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 02:22 PM
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FT,
is this the DVD you are referring to? Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - Training with an Electric Collar
He's got several and I wanted to make sure I knew which one.


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post #32 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 03:07 PM
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For Bill's force fetch method you would want the fetch command DVD. After reading Dennis Voigts review on this method I used it on my dog as well.

Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - The Fetch Command

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post #33 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska7133 View Post
FT,
is this the DVD you are referring to? Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - Training with an Electric Collar
He's got several and I wanted to make sure I knew which one.
No, it's the one called "The Fetch Command."
Find it at: Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia

[The "Traffic Cop" DVD is pretty good too, but it is very difficult to watch without dozing off.]

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post #34 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 04:03 PM
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As a newer person here, this is probably a thing I should stay out of....but apparently that requires more self control than I have.

I'm not as enthusiastic about Denise Fenzi as many. When the topic of positive reinforcement for ____ activity comes up, this article always comes to mind:
What is Possible? | Denise Fenzi

So then we end up with some questions:
- Is it possible to do high level North American retriever competitions on a R+ type training plan? We can probably agree that it's possible - Field Training Test Series That guy has achieved a fairly high level with his dog.
- Is it possible to replicate those results?
- Is it possible to be more successful than he was/is?
- What kinds of dogs can be "successful" with this type of program - is it a different type of dog than with a traditional program?

And we don't know until people try. And we won't expect everyone who tries to succeed because that doesn't really seem to happen with any type of training program - not necessarily because the training doesn't work - but the time, money, space, access to helpers, access/opportunities to test/trial, dog health, human health, handler knowledge going into it. People drop out over time. Some dogs can't handle the work. There are reasons all dogs don't end up at the highest levels of any and all activities.

ANd I don't expect a lot of people to want to do the R+ sort of experiment for many, many reasons.

I know people who compete at the national level with R+ trained dogs in sports where that is extremely not the norm. What's common among those trainers? Those people were already successful at that level with other training methods before doing the experiment. They weren't blindly walking into it having to learn the sport and figure out how to train it - they knew exactly what end product they wanted with the training, they knew about judges, what the tests/trials required, what behaviors were desirable and undesirable, the level of perfection and detail wanted, etc...
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post #35 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 08:36 PM
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Here is a good article on training positively and why it can fail when instinct kicks in:
What is Real Clicker Training? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training

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post #36 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 09:01 PM
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I have "trained" with Rose in the hallway from a puppy to retrieve and deliver to a heel. It was harder with Rose because;
1. she was the only dog in the house and had no one other dog to learn from, not did I know about any training places in the area where I could take her. That only happened about a year ago.
2. she was the first dog I ever trained and had no clue really of what I was doing.

Rose has always had an inquisitive mind. She has always tried to figure out what I wanted from her and what was pleasing to me. She has also been a "follower" as far as seeing what other dogs did and learn from them. All it took for her was to see one dog go over the agility ramp. And then I said go and she did it with no problems. LOL That was the most exciting part of the obedience class which also has the agility equipment set up.

Obedience (and I apologize in advance to anyone doing it) was boring for both myself and her. She knows the what my husband calls "circus tricks" of around, other side, heel, figure eights between my legs and all the other stuff. Nothing has ignited her more than the field. Since a 3 month old pup she has just loved to run the fields and play hide(my husband) and seek (Rose).

I know that some have sarcastically written on this forum that I am "reinventing the wheel". Frankly as a working person I do not have the time to go thru weeks of FF. Nor do I have the heart for it. I barely touched her ears when I pretended to go thru the FF. Reason why I went straight to walking fetch.

And no, I have never used "force" to teach my dogs anything or even to re-inforce something taught. I have only used force and by that I mean e-collar for a direct disobedience or for going after a rabbit, fox instead of the dead bird thrown out for the dog. They both know the meaning of the word NO and they both know the meaning of each comma when given before using the EC.


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post #37 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwimDog View Post
I know people who compete at the national level with R+ trained dogs in sports where that is extremely not the norm. What's common among those trainers? Those people were already successful at that level with other training methods before doing the experiment. They weren't blindly walking into it having to learn the sport and figure out how to train it - they knew exactly what end product they wanted with the training, they knew about judges, what the tests/trials required, what behaviors were desirable and undesirable, the level of perfection and detail wanted, etc...
Yes -- this -- great post

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post #38 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia M View Post
I know that some have sarcastically written on this forum that I am "reinventing the wheel".
I am not and was not being sarcastic. If you try to blaze your own path by ignoring or choosing bits and pieces of an established training program to hopefully attain the same goals, then you are figuratively reinventing the wheel. Or trying to. At the time you were struggling with some training concept by trying to piece it together yourself and not interested in following a program.

Quote:
Frankly as a working person I do not have the time to go thru weeks of FF.
"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" We all have our own time schedules and availability. Don't let that dictate the success of your training program.

Quote:
And no, I have never used "force" to teach my dogs anything or even to re-inforce something taught.
and here is where you contradict yourself:
Quote:
I have only used force and by that I mean e-collar for a direct disobedience or for going after a rabbit, fox instead of the dead bird thrown out for the dog.

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post #39 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-29-2015, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K9-Design View Post
I am not and was not being sarcastic. If you try to blaze your own path by ignoring or choosing bits and pieces of an established training program to hopefully attain the same goals, then you are figuratively reinventing the wheel. Or trying to. At the time you were struggling with some training concept by trying to piece it together yourself and not interested in following a program.



"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" We all have our own time schedules and availability. Don't let that dictate the success of your training program.

and here is where you contradict yourself:
Would you be so kind and just put me on ignore. I am not interested in any picking and fights. I can care less about the "established training programs". Anyone can put as may collars on the dog's butt and around its neck as he/she wants. I am not for it nor will I ever be. I rather let the dog be and find other activities for the dog then try to pursue my own high dreams.

Yes time is a factor. I am not hiring professional help, and while I am seeking people who know more than me and you for direction one still needs the time to do that.

So I appreciate your input but no thank you.


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post #40 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-29-2015, 06:03 AM
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very interesting article!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailDogs View Post
Here is a good article on training positively and why it can fail when instinct kicks in:
What is Real Clicker Training? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training



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