New Golden in Training - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-15-2013, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
KCGold
 
goldlover68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: KC MO
Posts: 1,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 885
Thanked 1,350 Times in 788 Posts
New Golden in Training

Our new girl has been in field training up in IL for 9 weeks now. Our goal for her is to take her through to MH level. Of course she will also be a good hunting companion for me also. We are with a new trainer and I spent a half day with him last week observing how she is doing and reviewing with him about next steps and timing. She seems to be right on track and we hope to have her back by the first week of August. We will start hunt testing soon there after....both AKC and HRC.

Question is 3-4 months normal timing for initial field training, with a goal to have her ready for JH WC, and SHR testing?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Foxy in Training July 2013.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	650.9 KB
ID:	225330  
goldlover68 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to goldlover68 For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013)
post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-15-2013, 11:53 AM
I shoot, they fetch.
 
sterregold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Guelph ON
Posts: 2,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 327
Thanked 2,147 Times in 1,021 Posts
To have a solid foundation, a talented dog can be through swim-by and well-prepared to run those levels working with a good pro or experienced, dedicated amateur every day in 4-6 months from what I have seen of dogs trained by the pro I day-train with. There is a lot to fit into that time: obedience foundations, FF, CC, 3HC, T and TT, WaterForce, Swimby, 3LP, and Blind drills, plus marking work. Transition work to build the skills and confidence for complex marking situations and multi-factored blinds will take longer.

Shelly
"Breeze" HR Trowsnest Sterre Autumn Breeze Can. SH WCX, Am. MH CCA
"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
"Butch" Sterre Badlands Outlaw JH WC I(Ch ptd)/Am JH 2013 Nan Gordon Trophy
"Bonnie" Sterre Texas Bluebonnet JH WCI, Am JH
"Wings" Sterre Widgeon on the Wing
"Chrissy" Halfmoon Embellishment (Cavalier)
"Juniper" Amberwood Northern Exposure CD RNCL (Apr15/02-Feb12/13)
http://www.sterregold.net
sterregold is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sterregold For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013)
post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-15-2013, 12:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
EvanG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 567 Times in 307 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldlover68 View Post
Question is 3-4 months normal timing for initial field training, with a goal to have her ready for JH WC, and SHR testing?
No. Even for an exceptional dog with a very experienced, exceptional trainer, formal Basics (which is what you badly need to reach your goals) require a good 6 months. I happened to be sitting next to the late Rex Carr when he was asked how long he thought Basics should take for most dogs. He was very direct. "About 6 months. If it takes much longer than that I'm suspect of the dog. If it takes much less, I'm suspect of the trainer.

This is the foundation for a lifetime of fieldwork. Here's what it consists of.

The components of Basics in order

1) “Here”
2) “Heel & Sit”
3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8) Single tee
9) Double tee
10) Water tee with Swim-by

Skip any of this and you're cheating yourself and your dog.


And mind you, this is just the foundation. All the more advanced skills are built upon this foundation. Part of the charm of fieldwork is that the learning goes on and on - for you and your dog.

EvanG

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that. But the really great ones make you feel that you too can become great." ~ Mark Twain
EvanG is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to EvanG For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013), nolefan (07-18-2013)
post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-15-2013, 12:58 PM
I shoot, they fetch.
 
sterregold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Guelph ON
Posts: 2,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 327
Thanked 2,147 Times in 1,021 Posts
Yeah, the ones I have seen get through in 4 months were very talented dogs, whose owners had a lot of training background, so they came in for basics with a really solid obedience foundation already....

Shelly
"Breeze" HR Trowsnest Sterre Autumn Breeze Can. SH WCX, Am. MH CCA
"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
"Butch" Sterre Badlands Outlaw JH WC I(Ch ptd)/Am JH 2013 Nan Gordon Trophy
"Bonnie" Sterre Texas Bluebonnet JH WCI, Am JH
"Wings" Sterre Widgeon on the Wing
"Chrissy" Halfmoon Embellishment (Cavalier)
"Juniper" Amberwood Northern Exposure CD RNCL (Apr15/02-Feb12/13)
http://www.sterregold.net
sterregold is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sterregold For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013)
post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-15-2013, 09:27 PM
the party's crashing us
 
K9-Design's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Gatorcountry
Posts: 4,079
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Thanks: 1,139
Thanked 4,129 Times in 1,964 Posts
Whoa. He asked if she could be trained for Junior & Started in 3-4 months. Unless the dog is a real dud I can't imagine any decent pro not being able to accomplish this. You could easily have a dog trained through basic obedience and force fetch and marking at a Junior level in that time frame. Believe it or not, not every dog in Junior has been through swim by.....

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing CDX MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix" CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
K9-Design is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to K9-Design For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013), hollyk (07-18-2013), MarieP (07-15-2013)
post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 07:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
EvanG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 567 Times in 307 Posts
It depends on the owner/trainer's perspective. Never, in over 35 years of training retrievers, have I recommended to a client that they develop their pup with the goal of running lower level stakes. Even when one of them ended up as the national #3 Derby dog with 7 wins/49 points, we were developing her for training at the highest level. I think it's destructive as an overall goal to shoot for a minimum. Knowing what I've come to know of these dogs I could not in good conscience suggest such a thing.

Junior & Senior stakes all over the country are littered with under trained, poorly controlled dogs being exposed to the uncontrolled environment of hunt tests in order to collect enough ribbons to get titles. Most of them are at an age at which they would be far better served to, at the very least, get their formal Basics completed and sharpened so they'll be able to become fully trained dogs that can perform at their real potential abilities.

I'm sure this is being misread by some as saying that running lower level stakes is destructive. That's not at all what I've said here. Just don't run under trained dogs in uncontrolled environments. That's backwards.

Before you begin running Juniors, get your Basics on board, and have your dog regularly running Senior level work in daily training. Before running Senior, have your dog well along in Transition and running well at Master level work in daily training. Train above...beyond...train for success, not failure. You put an MH on a dog, and few will ever remember a JH or SH.

An old axiom goes "Shoot for the moon! Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars!" Shoot for the minimum, and miss...well, you can fill in the blank where you'll land, but it's a waste of a good dog not to set high goals based on sound training. Good luck.

EvanG

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that. But the really great ones make you feel that you too can become great." ~ Mark Twain
EvanG is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to EvanG For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013)
post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 02:52 PM
Grumpy Old Man
 
Swampcollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Thanks: 290
Thanked 4,079 Times in 1,653 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldlover68 View Post
Our new girl has been in field training up in IL for 9 weeks now. Our goal for her is to take her through to MH level. Of course she will also be a good hunting companion for me also. We are with a new trainer and I spent a half day with him last week observing how she is doing and reviewing with him about next steps and timing. She seems to be right on track and we hope to have her back by the first week of August. We will start hunt testing soon there after....both AKC and HRC.

Question is 3-4 months normal timing for initial field training, with a goal to have her ready for JH WC, and SHR testing?
Whoa hold on there.

Is your goal to take the dog through Master or to stop at Junior? When you can answer that you can decide the training path you want to embark upon.

If your goal is JH or SHR, you can get there in three or four months with a dog of average ability. You'll have a good basic gun dog that is obedient, has good mouth habits, can do basic single marked retrieves and very simple doubles.

If your goal is MH or better, expect a minimum of six months of training, but probably eight for a dog of average ability to have completed the necessary basics to start on the path. The dog should be obedient, handling on basic land and water blinds, and doing multiple marks.

The big difference is whether or not you want a dog that "Handles" (takes hand and whistle signals in the field). The process required to teach the dog to handle takes time.

"You own what you condone." ~ Mike Lardy
Swampcollie is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Swampcollie For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013)
post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 04:56 PM
Stacey

 
Alaska7133's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,279
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Thanks: 2,108
Thanked 4,276 Times in 2,278 Posts
I do have to say that you pup has a wonderful pedigree. Just great! Are you planning on doing field trials?


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
Alaska7133 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Alaska7133 For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013), goldlover68 (07-17-2013)
post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
KCGold
 
goldlover68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: KC MO
Posts: 1,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 885
Thanked 1,350 Times in 788 Posts
All,
Thanks so much for offering your thoughts on this training question. As I noted in my initial question our goal is to take her through MH, HRCH, WCX, UH...and maybe GRHRCH. Of course this is all dependent on how she does in training, and how well I do as her handler. We may run her in a Derby, if our trainer feels she has potential, but I have never run Field Trials, and she would be at a disadvantage because of my lack of experience running Trials.

We will continue to work with our trainer and take what time it takes to get her foundational work done. We have already committed to our trainer for Winter training in Texas.

Again thanks for the good feedback,

CarlC

Last edited by goldlover68; 07-17-2013 at 11:06 AM.
goldlover68 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to goldlover68 For This Useful Post:
gdgli (07-18-2013)
post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 01:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: East of the Mississippi
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Thanks: 435
Thanked 1,308 Times in 512 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9-Design View Post
Whoa. He asked if she could be trained for Junior & Started in 3-4 months. Unless the dog is a real dud I can't imagine any decent pro not being able to accomplish this. You could easily have a dog trained through basic obedience and force fetch and marking at a Junior level in that time frame. Believe it or not, not every dog in Junior has been through swim by.....
TOTALLY AGREE!
To say that a dog must, or even needs, to be through Basics before playing in a WC or a JH is poppycock! (And frankly, I would extend that list to Derby stakes, but that's just me ....)
Nothing bad enough to ruin a dog will happen if you play them ... if the pup totally turns you off and acts like an idiot while playing the game, of course you should stop playing and regroup. These games are for the owners as much as for the dogs. Play the games, have fun. Hey, even if something "breaks" as a result of playing the games before they are through basics it "ain't no big deal" ... really! That's why we train. The lower level suffixes can be attained while training for the higher level suffixes ... or even the prefixes.
Whether the goal is WCX, MH, or FC-AFC, get involved and play.


Oh, the short answer to your question is YES (exactly as stated by K9design).

FTGoldens

Last edited by FTGoldens; 07-17-2013 at 02:05 PM.
FTGoldens is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FTGoldens For This Useful Post:
hollyk (07-18-2013), K9-Design (07-17-2013)
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome