Heeling Methods - Heads Up - Page 4 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 01:38 AM
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Pilotís heads up heel. He was around 15 months then. He had won a fairly large novice B class that day. We lost it for a while when his teenage brain kicked in and heís almost got it back. Dang.....I need to find shows with photography. Screen shots from cell phone videos kinda suck.


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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:20 AM
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This has been a really great discussion. I used to train with a Bridget disciple in Houston and I learned SO much from her - but we were training for Rally, not Obedience. Bridget herself actually came to one of our training classes when she was in town, but I didn't realize it was her until later.

Heeling is my biggest struggle and I would so LOVE to take a Bridget seminar.
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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 11:17 AM
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This has been a really great discussion. I used to train with a Bridget disciple in Houston and I learned SO much from her - but we were training for Rally, not Obedience. Bridget herself actually came to one of our training classes when she was in town, but I didn't realize it was her until later.

Heeling is my biggest struggle and I would so LOVE to take a Bridget seminar.



I saw Bridget at NOC when it was in Ohio. She did very well. I've never had the opportunity to go to one of her seminars. I'm going to a Matthew Twitty seminar this weekend. One whole day is dedicated to heeling.


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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:12 AM
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Revisiting this thread as it's come up again, wondering if people realize there is more than one "ideal picture" for heads up heeling.

This video here - is Bridget.



And while this is "ideal" for a lot of people in the obedience world, I think there's a little too much hanging back by the dog. And more extreme style that I've seen - it's not that pretty to look at.

Compare to the two runs in this video - and these are heads up heeling styles that I prefer. The GSP was a dog who I watched in classes and matches and trials and had me wanting a dog who had that ease of movement and control. <= And actually, I still am unsure if most people would say if this qualifies as heads up heeling simply because you don't have that extreme bend backwards by the dog.

And the golden is similar to Bridget's in heeling style, but not as extreme a bend. Some of that (I think) is him being shorter bodied prob.



My personal ideal heeling style - and what I am getting from my puppy is something between the two. I have a little guy who has very nice focus. He watches nonstop. And bringing his head up, you can him prancing. His first conformation show when he was 6 months old, he heeled all heads up and prancing out there. We had somebody who is also an obedience judge judging us and she was smiling big time to see him do all that. LOL.

But with my pup - I don't want anything extreme with him. I want a picture more like the GSP, though with more of golden retriever style LOL. And I'm getting it. Stylewise, he's very much like Jacks now (first video I posted). Otherwise, the types of things I'm working on with him is making sure he knows he has a rear - meaning, I want clean and pretty turns and circles in obedience and no flaring out.

When people say that they don't do heads up heeling or don't want to do it - I think they are referring to more of that extreme style where the dogs look like they are squatting a little behind and bent over backwards.


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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 01:15 PM
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I tend to agree with Megora.

I prefer the smooth movement and lovely teamwork I see with the GSP. The level back and lack of wasted motion while heeling is my ideal.

But, and this is a huge but, it is a matter of personal preference so bottom line is video you & your dog heeling, review the video(s) and decide how you wish to present your dog.


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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 10:07 PM
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I tend to agree with Megora.

I prefer the smooth movement and lovely teamwork I see with the GSP. The level back and lack of wasted motion while heeling is my ideal.

But, and this is a huge but, it is a matter of personal preference so bottom line is video you & your dog heeling, review the video(s) and decide how you wish to present your dog.
No I would never want that much focus, attention precision and animation, said no one who ever had it. I can understand why some would discount that type of work, for most it would be reserved for dreams and not even a remote possibility.
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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 10:25 PM
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No I would never want that much focus, attention precision and animation, said no one who ever had it. I can understand why some would discount that type of work, for most it would be reserved for dreams and not even a remote possibility.
Jerry and Connie Walker (assuming this is 2 people posting here)...

You forgot to mention the squatty butts on some of the dogs who are doing the IPO style obedience.

All of us want focus, attention, precision, and engagement from our dogs. If you watched the 2nd video I posted here - you can view all of that there.

Do not assume that people who do not like the extreme styles... are instead preferring dogs looking at the ground and lagging, etc. We DO want our dogs to look nice.

You root for Anney's dogs, right? I've seen her share videos of her dogs in obedience and they are gorgeous movers. Most of us want to get that with our dogs and a lot of us do (on good days anyway).


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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Megora View Post
Jerry and Connie Walker (assuming this is 2 people posting here)...

You forgot to mention the squatty butts on some of the dogs who are doing the IPO style obedience.

All of us want focus, attention, precision, and engagement from our dogs. If you watched the 2nd video I posted here - you can view all of that there.

Do not assume that people who do not like the extreme styles... are instead preferring dogs looking at the ground and lagging, etc. We DO want our dogs to look nice.

You root for Anney's dogs, right? I've seen her share videos of her dogs in obedience and they are gorgeous movers. Most of us want to get that with our dogs and a lot of us do (on good days anyway).
no Offence meant I am just stating the obvious that I have never see anyone have that kind of want to in their dog and try to change it.
Would she be better and would it take more training to make her drop her head and pace on the slow?
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry N Connie Walker View Post
Would she be better and would it take more training to make her drop her head and pace on the slow?
???? Those are two separate things.

Personally speaking, I don't want my dogs pacing ever. But it's not the worst thing in the world if the dog is not losing points and attention is there. It's just an ugly gait. Sometimes it happens because the dog is lazy or sometimes there's other reasons. But if a dog is pacing, does not mean that dog will lose points. One of the top dogs I know (and I mean nationally top dog) - she paces all the time. And I've talked to people whose dogs pace and they reached points where they don't give a darn if the dogs are getting high scores and are reliably and quick and efficient at everything else.

That said, I do know of people who work like your dog (lovely worker btw) who have lost points because of bumping and forging. One of my friends took her boy into the ring and did a truly beautiful run with him. Just heads up, beautiful movement, engagement, etc.... I thought it was going to be a 198 or 199 score? Ended up being 194, which wasn't a bad score to begin with but did not reflect the run. Spoke to her afterwards and heard the judge was nicking her left and right for bumping and forging.

Dogs dropping their heads - believe me, that's the HARDEST THING TO TRAIN away. And once your dog has figured out that he doesn't need to keep his head up - he doesn't. <= And I think some people have decided that it's not worth pulling their hair out over. Btw, my definition of dropping the head is when the dog is looking forward or away. Head angle is something people split hairs over, but whatever you do - most of us want our dogs focused on us. I'm ok if their focal point is my hip because that's keeping them in heel position and no chance of wrapping around. That said, I do like a straight line from my dog's face to mine where I'm looking down where he needs to be. Stuff like that.


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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 09:11 AM
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I clearly stated it was a personal preference.

It is not discounting the work that goes into that style to not want it in your own dogs, so perhaps you should be less offensive in your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry N Connie Walker View Post
No I would never want that much focus, attention precision and animation, said no one who ever had it. I can understand why some would discount that type of work, for most it would be reserved for dreams and not even a remote possibility.


Sharon with her golden crew Faelan, Towhee, Brady, Aedan
Finch

Running on silent paws beside me now and forever King , Rowdy and Casey

You add obedience to the game,
not the game to obedience -- Shade Whitesel

Give up your goals,
Focus on the process -- Denise Fenzi
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