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Delmarva Goldens

5K views 18 replies 12 participants last post by  Ford Prefect 
#1 ·
Hi all,

So I've been lurking for quite a while, bouncing off breeders with forum postings. I adopted a young golden 11 1/2 years ago, and luckily, he's still going strong. I've been looking for a quality breeder this time because I'd like to start with a puppy and train him myself. My dog still has the energy to be a good mentor dog, and loves playing with small pups. I've run across a few breeders that sound good (and many many more that don't). One of the names that keeps popping up is Delmarva. Love the goldens, but have one BIG reservation...

She does not allow her dogs to receive annual vaccinations. Instead she refers to something called annual blood titer tests. Doing some research, that is a thing, but rather controversial. My big question is: with just about every dog related business (groomer, dog day care, kennel) requiring the pooch to be up-to-date on vaccines, it seems like the only thing you could do with one of her dogs would be to keep it at home with minimal contact with other dogs. Since I'm a big believer is socializing dogs, and dog day care, it seems this would be a deal breaker for me. The goldens on her web site are beautiful, and I'm sure are spectacular pups.

So, for those have dealt with her, am I reading too much into this? I've no doubt she's a quality breeder that cares about her dogs. But is seems to me that without vaccinations, you're stuck keeping it at home.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks
 
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#2 ·
There are several breeders who try to impose this on buyers. But the thing is, getting vaccines is not the same thing as allowing a dog to be bred, for instance, or other things that impact the breeder negatively. I ask people to be thoughtful on the vaccines they use, but ultimately, I am not the dogs owner anymore and I have to hope they use good judgement. Now if they bred the dog, even if I am not his owner anymore, that would impact me and I do think my contract would be upheld around that.. but I'm not sure a contract can be written that would be upheld for something like vaccines. Dana?
I dk how the forum works for notifications- maybe I have to put user name- DanaRuns
 
#3 ·
Regarding titers, some states accept them, others don't. As a personal choice I am a minimalist in terms of vaccinations. Oscar has received a rabies vaccine but we will be titering him going forward. This is supported by our veterinarian. As you noted, there is some controversy around this choice. The article below is helpful in outlining the discussion around this issue:

https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/160701a.aspx
 
#5 ·
Regarding titers, some states accept them, others don't. As a personal choice I am a minimalist in terms of vaccinations. Oscar has received a rabies vaccine but we will be titering him going forward
Same here. In Ohio we are required to do rabies, so we do that. We titer the others. Something we've just started doing the last couple years. We aren't doing topical flee/tick stuff either.

Our vet isn't too hip about not doing all the vaccines.
I know some Golden breeders that do do all the vaccines and some who titer and some that don't do any shots after a certain age.

It's just another one of those things you need to research and make your best decision on.
 
#4 ·
We Titer with the exception of rabies. Our vet gives us an ID card for each dog with their picture and date due for next vaccination. The date is actually when we'll titer again and basically shows that they are up-to-date. They have the immunity. That card is all I've had to show for anything.. Maybe ask your vet how they would handle shot records if you go that route.
 
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#6 · (Edited)
As far as I know, rabies is the only vaccination required by law anywhere in the US (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and there is quite a bit of evidence that we over-vaccinate our pets (with an adverse impact on their immune systems - including rising cancer rates). This is the primary reason you may see a breeder insisting on titers instead of just giving your dog "booster" shots on a set schedule, whether they need them or not. The breeder is trying to get their puppy buyers to do everything possible to make sure their dogs live long and healthy lives - an admirable goal in my opinion!

For anyone who might not know, a titer is a laboratory test that measures the presence and amount of antibodies in blood. A titer may be used to prove immunity to disease. A blood sample is taken and tested. If the test is positive (above a particular known value, generally based on challenge studies) then the animal has immunity to that disease.

I have personally followed Dr. Dodds' reduced vaccination protocol (https://www.hemopet.org/dodds-vaccination-protocol-dogs-2016/) for almost 20 years. Basically, after my dogs receive their puppy shots (parvo/distemper ONLY, if I can find a vet that carries it) and their one-year parvo/distemper booster (and I sometimes titer for that one instead) I titer every three years. I've never had to re-vaccinate for either (the titers stayed strong their whole lives). Most vets are now familiar with titering, as are most dog-related businesses (such as trainers, groomers, boarding kennels, etc.).So far, all such facilities that I have dealt with have been happy to accept proof of a recent titer showing protective levels in lieu of proof of vaccination (and if a business did insist on vaccination instead, I would take my business elsewhere). My dogs go to daycare, training classes, dog shows, come to work with me, go to workshops, come on vacation, get professionally groomed, and are occasionally boarded. I certainly don't keep them at home under some sort of quarantine!

And just to be clear... as long as your dog's titers are strong, they are NOT at risk for those diseases! That's the whole point of the titer - to use a blood test to *prove* that your dog has circulating antibodies to those diseases and could fight them if exposed. "Boosting" a dog who is already protected does very little, other than inject them unnecessarily with mercury/thymerosal and other toxins (which are in most vaccines as either preservatives or adjuvants). In fact - a small number of dogs do not respond to a vaccination by developing immunity. So... the only way to know if your dog's vaccination "took" would be by running a titer. Titers have become pretty main-stream and most vets now know how to draw and prep the blood and where to send it. Titers are more expensive than vaccines however, especially if you go through your vet. I generally have my vet pull and prep the blood for a small fee, and then mail the samples myself to Dr. Dodds at Hemopet because it's significantly cheaper than having my vet send out the samples.

So... back to the particular breeder you are asking about... If she is otherwise doing everything that would make her a "good" breeder, then I would say the titer requirement is her just trying to help you to help her puppy live an long and healthy life! As long as she's not saying that the puppy should not even receive its initial puppy shots, I personally would have NO problem with this requirement. If you have questions, I'd ask her about it - most breeders who do this sort of thing are happy to discuss the rationale behind it with you and do what they can to guide and reassure you.

The bigger question I guess is whether you feel comfortable having the breeder "dictate" what sort of medical care you will give your dog, regardless of her motivations, and if you are comfortable either adhering to what is in her contract or deliberately violating the contract once you have agreed to it.
 
#7 ·
...She does not allow her dogs to receive annual vaccinations. Instead she refers to something called annual blood titer tests.
This would be a definite plus for me. IMO, annual vaccines are totally unnecessary. Titers will let you know if/when your dog’s immunity for a certain disease is gone and at that point revaccination would be required. The only vaccine that Chance received, after his initial series, was rabies because it’s required by law. And that was every 3 years.

If anyone does decide to still vaccinate their dogs yearly, please make sure to space the vaccines out. Never give rabies at the same time as other vaccines. Wait at least 2-3 weeks between shots. Very important. It amazes me that some vets continue to administer all vaccines at the same time. Crazy...
 
#8 ·
#10 ·
Yikes! This is horrifying to me! Of course, it's also a bit vague. They ask for "valid proof of vaccination" for rabies and distemper. Does the mean the dog has to be vaccinated every year??! (Even the vaccine manufacturer and the AVMA don't advocate for that!). Or would a dog with an official form from a vet saying the pet received a 3-year vaccine within the last three years qualify?

Even more horrifying is that it appears they require ALL dogs to be spayed or neutered! How does that affect responsible hobby breeders? Or those of us who believe our dogs are healthier and longer-lived if they're left intact??

Remind me not to move to D.C....
 
#13 ·
This is just opening a huge can of worms. In a nut shell, Titer testing measures for immunity. Once you show immunity you can not lose it.

I've been titering my dogs since 2004. None of my dogs have ever needed any vaccines after their 4 month final booster. Immunity was achieved after the final booster. Rabies is done every 3 years but they have had a titer for rabies for a while now maybe 3-5 years or so but not sure if any state accept titers for rabies.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Vermont accepts titers... But I think I should expand on this. Apparently a waiver can be requested for medical exemptions, not due to owner preference.

See this link: https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Annual-Rabies-Vaccination-Waiver.aspx

However, I wonder how stringent this criteria is? Perhaps it depends on how your vet frames the request. My vet did not represent getting a waiver with a completed titer was going to be difficult. I'll know in February and post the outcome :)
 
#16 ·
@Ford Prefect , Are you saying that Sue requires her puppy owners to follow that vaccination protocol? Or just that she doesn't personally vaccinate her own dogs?

In either case, like others have said, most places will accept waivers if you've titered and proven immunity. The only annual vaccine that I do is the bivalent flu vaccine since my dogs are at shows a lot. Otherwise, I do 3-year rabies and 3-year parvo/distemper vaccines. Titering at my vet is very expensive, but I live close to a vet school, so I may just go there to have my dogs titered in the future. I think vets sometimes upcharge for sending the bloodwork off to a lab (usually a university) that can do titers as most regular vet offices don't have the equipment for it.

Anyway, I would not let that stop you from getting a pup from Sue. She bred both of my dog's parents (although she is not his breeder) and he has the most wonderful temperament. Confident, outgoing, sweetest dog I've ever had, biddable, smart, loyal. Just all around wonderful. He's also the first dog I've ever trained for competition and he achieved 9 titles at less than 4 years old, and I'm hoping for several more in the next few years.

Anney can you chime in here? @K9-Design
 
#17 ·
Thanks to all who took the time to respond. I feel much more comfortable with titering now. Unfortunately, my dog day care requires annual distemper, which is a no go with Sue, the owner of Delmarva. As I'm single, dog day care is a must so the dog isn't home alone all day. The search for a reputable, responsible breeder continues... (If anyone has a recommendation for a responsible breeder in the PA-MD-NOVA area, I'd greatly appreciate it!)

For those who may be interested, Delmarva is planning a breeding in late December.

Thanks again, and I appreciate the education.
 
#18 ·
Not to beat a dead horse, but did you specifically ASK your daycare if they'd take titers? Most of the dog businesses I work with will have vaccinations requirements posted on their websites... I think it's just more convenient and covers them a bit legally. But all have agreed to take titers when asked. If the owner won't take a titer, you may want to find out why (it may just be they don't know what they are and a little education might go a long way)...

Just hate to see you eliminate a good breeder for a barrier that might not even exist...
 
#19 ·
Hi all,

Sorry to be "ghost" and desert this post. I appreciate all the help. My dog day care owner was away for the holiday so I couldn't get an answer. So it turns out she will accept titers (yay!). Unfortunately, all the Delmarva pups were spoken for by the time I got the word.

Everyone here has convinced me that titering is the way to go, and the research I did for the most part says it's better for the dogs.

I'll keep my eye out for the next Delmarva litter, and keep looking for another reputable breeder that plans puppies this spring.

Thanks again!
 
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