Titles vs no titles - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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Titles vs no titles

Hello,
I have been looking for a puppy and have noticed some breeders have both dogs that have titles and dogs that do not. I was wondering why some of their dogs are titled and why others are not? Do they not show the ones that are not titled?

Would you have a preference receiving a puppy from parents with a title vs without (if they came from the same breeder)?
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 04:22 PM
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Depends. If a breeder typically finishes their girls before breeding them, perhaps that particular girl needs some ribspring to be competitive. Or maybe she just needs to generally bulk up.
If they don't and just breed untitled girls to titled boys, they're using the stud dog to improve in theory.
Sometimes a breeder has a plan for their girls, and a litter would benefit them maturity wise. Sometimes the girl is taking a break from showing. There are tons of reasons... but if conformation titles are what you're referring to, and the breeder usually does finish their girls, they probably have a good reason that she's not finished.
If it is performance, otoh, that's different. I don't know of many reasons to not title in performance venues that pregnancy would lend a hand in. If the breeder has tail titles (after their name) on all but the one they're breeding, maybe that girl isn't focussed enough to do even a rally novice. .. if so, I would not want a puppy from her. I wouldn't imagine a pedigree full of holes (titles absent) would be attractive to a competitive person but for a pet you don't mind having no bragging rights on, it might be fine. So... best answer I have is to ask the breeder why the girl isn't titled and see if you like the answer!
PS there is more $$ invested in any kind of titles so those puppies might rightfully cost more. Or the breeder may feel the pedigree even without titles is deserving of the same cost per pup ...
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 04:23 PM
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Boy, that's a huge question. Robin gave you some excellent examples.

I don't like to speak for other breeders, so I just speak for myself, because I'm in that situation right now. I feel pretty strongly that breeding dogs should compete and prove their worth. Yet, I have one bitch who is not (yet?) titled, who we may breed this year, before finishing her championship (if we ever do). For us, the reason for this is because we have only so much money to put into showing dogs, and right now we are putting our money into this bitch's half-brother.

This bitch is hard to put points on because she is very dark in color, while almost all the other dogs in the ring in my area are light golden. It's not because she's not a nice dog. Here is her photo (that someone else drew on, sorry).



I think she's worthy of a championship. You decide what you think. But we're putting our money into this boy, because even though he's young we think he will do really well when he grows up.



So we have to make a choice. Show the dog who is easy to finish and may go far, or show the dog who is hard to finish because of color?

Other breeders may face similar choices of where they should put their cash. Most good breeders are able to evaluate their dogs, but because we can all be a bit kennel blind from time to time, we should also all compete with them, imho.

So I don't think you can draw any blanket conclusions. My reasons are probably unique to me. Other breeders may have reasons unique to them. Some might be valid reasons. Some might not. You have to take each situation individually, and you have to ask each breeder her reasons and her thinking.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglesgolden View Post
Hello,
Would you have a preference receiving a puppy from parents with a title vs without (if they came from the same breeder)?
If they are coming from the same breeder and some have titles and some don't I would ask the breeder why they choose this pairing? They may have a very good reason.

I don't think titles are everything, but if you are looking for something specific I do think it should be shown in the line. For example; Duke is my 8 year old. His father was from a line heavy with field dogs and titles. His mother was from a show line, but she didn't have any titles. The breeder was a friend of the owner of the male. They mutually agreed to the breeding so they could each have a puppy. I was lucky enough to get one from the litter and he is the best hunting Golden we have ever had. My trainer actually told me yesterday that he is the best Golden he's ever trained. I also love his looks.

The one thing that you don't state is what kind of titles. Do you have plans on what your going to do with the puppy, or is it just for a pet?

Titles show me what the previous generations were capable of. If I'm looking for a field dog I definitely want to see something that indicates that they still have that natural prey drive.

I however will take health certifications over everything else.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 04:49 PM
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A lot of agility and field titles are almost impossible to obtain before the dog is 2 years old and breedable. Personally I look for dogs with performance titles. I have my minimum titles I want to see. For bitches I think it's very important to have a strong bitch line. If the dam doesn't have them, then the granddam should. There are some performance titles that are not obtained until the dog is on average 6 years old, that would be FC and AFC titles that are in front of the dog's name. Only 2 or 3 golden retrievers in the US achieve that title in a year.


As for conformation titles, I have a bitch from slow growing lines. She was really not mature enough until age 3 to get any points. Her mother finished when she was 3.



Are titles important? Maybe, it depends on what you are competing in. If you aren't competing, then they probably aren't that important.


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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses!

What about males without any titles? I found a breeder with a male (3 years old) that has no titles but the grandparents are all titled (GCHB)?

Titles are not the most important thing to me. Health and clearances are definitely a top priority, but I wanted to get insight into the world of showing/breeding. I was just curious to know what the thought process is with titles vs no titles.

Thanks for the info!
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:45 AM
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My preference is for males to be titled in the areas I am most interested in(in my case obedience & agility).


The females are honestly harder to evaluate since they lose so much time to heat cycles (my girls also become too attractive/distracting to show several weeks before their cycle begins), gestation and litter raising.


Showing in any venue is expensive as mentioned, and sometimes choices have to be made as to where to spend that money and since even in conformation where bitches can be shown in heat, their dogalities may differ when going in, in and coming out of season and may not present the confident outgoing and yet friendly dogality they may normally have so entry fees again come into consideration.


Look at the pedigree and see if the area that interest you have the titles -- btw; if you are interested in trick or rally, obedience titles are also a good indication. If I were interested in scent work, tracking titles would be of interest to me. If I were interested in Championship titles, I would actually want both parents & many in the pedigree to have CH titles; as mentioned upstream Obedience and Agility titles require the dogs be more mature before trialing is even started while conformation can be started young. Hunt Test and Field trialing? Personally I would consider younger parents not having their titles yet as long as the titles were in the pedigree -- these are also physically demanding, although a more natural style of demanding for a well structured golden, on the dog and may not be started depending on the owner.


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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglesgolden View Post
Thanks for the responses!

What about males without any titles? I found a breeder with a male (3 years old) that has no titles but the grandparents are all titled (GCHB)?

Titles are not the most important thing to me. Health and clearances are definitely a top priority, but I wanted to get insight into the world of showing/breeding. I was just curious to know what the thought process is with titles vs no titles.

Thanks for the info!
for me, there is no reason a boy can't be titled by 3 in some venue- girls are harder to judge on that for the same reason Lassie was always played by a male dog- boys don't blow coat w hormone changes or have heats
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 08:45 AM
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Dana your girl is stunning! Send her to the east coast / Fl area... lots more color!! I happen to be partial to color but they are rare in N TX too, not sure why they get overlooked. I thought it was more about structure than coat color. LOL this is why I'm not a breeder.

As a buyer I like to see titles on both ends. I have seen lots of pedigrees where they don't title the females but do use titled studs from other kennels. Occasionally this would be fine but if the breeder NEVER shows any of their dogs then to me there is a reason. I realize time is a factor and so is money but if non of their dogs in their kennels are titled in some way, I see this as a lack of commitment to their breeding program.

I could be totally wrong but this indicates to me they are breeding for income.. doing a good job of it but not involved. I ask a lot from my dogs, kids, cats, obedience, swimming, canoeing, long walks at the lake. Visiting rest homes or children's hospital or laying at my feet for hours at a cheer competition. Trips to the hardware store off leash or laying under the table when we go to a restaurant. Titles on both sire & dam tells me the dog that comes home with me can do it all. If the dogs cost the same, why not go with a breeder that is invested?
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglesgolden View Post
Hello,
I have been looking for a puppy and have noticed some breeders have both dogs that have titles and dogs that do not. I was wondering why some of their dogs are titled and why others are not? Do they not show the ones that are not titled?

Would you have a preference receiving a puppy from parents with a title vs without (if they came from the same breeder)?
OK. It's Fri night and because my pup has low grooming needs before a show tomorrow I have nothing to do, so why not type something I was waffling about typing earlier this week. Stir up chit chat?

I was thinking this was literally the same question asked very recently on this forum which seemed to have semi-blown up (if I'm remembering the right thread)....

But I see this is different.

Question #1

What you are asking about are those breeders who seem to have 2 tiers for what they breed. If they have 1 litter where they went OUT and bred to a big name boy, they might have another litter where they used their own boy or on a very rare occasion a "nearly" titled boy that they know.

A breeder I'm thinking about is somebody who does not show very often. Or not like she used to. I do not think that she shows her girls at all - partly because they get placed after a couple litters.

She does usually breed to big name boys. And she does show her boys. Typically they are sent out and finished.

She's one type of breeder.

Other type would be somebody who keeps a puppy from every litter and grows them up a little to see how they turn out. They will show and likely end up sending dogs out with a handler to finish, but as far showing every dog to a CH before breeding... probably would not work if it takes 3-4 years for a slow growing girl to come into her own. The only necessity before breeding is getting full clearances.

And then there's breeders with fast developing dogs + they themselves are excellent handlers will likely finish the dogs very fast and send them out into the dog yard for a couple years to grow up before they are bred.

To answer your question - this is a tough breed to finish in the show ring. This is a huge reason why you do not always see both sides of a pedigree bear CH titles before being bred.

If dogs are being shown, it might take time before the girlies are finished. Meanwhile, breeders do not like waiting too long before breeding them. That's what I've heard as a permanently-always boy dog owner.

Males are more likely to be titled, because the breeders have ten million stud dogs to pick and choose from. As long as they are not sterile or going that direction, they can be used for breedings. The dogs could be DEAD and still father litters...

This means that (a) they have a better chance of being noticed if they are CH titled and (b) you have a lot of finished and mature dogs that people are using.

Question # 2

Is actually the same question I saw on this forum before. Would people prefer to have titles on the parents before picking a puppy from a litter.

More than that, I would ask what those titles mean to you if you don't know the dogs?

^^^ If you don't know the dogs, they mean everything. If you know the dogs or have a wider view, titles mean nothing.

I'll give you a good example.

There are people who have poor quality girlies who are trying to fix EVERYTHING by breeding to a CH boy.

Some boys - that might work. But have seen some boys who are middle of the road type dogs. They are not particularly outstanding themselves and you might be surprised to learn they are CH dogs.... those dogs are not going to fix big problems. You might see them affecting some things, but not everything.

The obedience titles are another thing which might not mean much - particularly if you are looking for an easy dog to coast through obedience titles with.

Have seen CH and obedience titled goldens in obedience looking awful because they are lagging 10 feet behind the owners and there's other things going on that you do not want. The perspective of show bred goldens comes from people watching dogs like that.

Am not saying don't look for titles on dogs. I think when you have titled dogs loaded up in a pedigree, it's something special. It also makes you feel better about paying a big $$$$ check for that puppy vs spending $500 or so less by buying from a more commercial type breeder.

But I do think that people hunt for titles so much on pedigrees that they are not paying close enough attention to the quality of the dogs themselves or the experience, ethics, and focus of the breeders.

Have heard people make rather rude comments about some dogs out there being "diamonds in the rough" because you suddenly had a CH titled and mondo obedience and field titled dog from "pet" pedigrees. One in particular had no titles on his parents, and in that 3 generation pedigree only 1/2 the dogs had titles vs 100% which you might get in highly tooted big litters out there.

That was not a diamond in the rough situation. That was the benefit of a breeder being consistent and careful in what she bred.

That's why going with an experienced, established, conscientious, etc breeder is always a safe bet.

The next best thing is going with a breeder who is very closely managed by a mentor telling them what to breed, what to breed to, etc.

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