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Buyers don't care, nor should they.

13K views 82 replies 30 participants last post by  Ljilly28 
#1 ·
Puppy buyers don't want a show dog. They don't want a hunting dog. They don't care about conformation or suitability for original purpose. Structure isn't high on their list. The breed standard means nothing to them. They don't care if the breeder is competing with her dogs. And why should they? All they are looking for is a companion, and until they came here they didn't even know about all that stuff. What they care about is having a generally healthy dog with the famous Golden temperament. If they want anything specific at all it's usually a sex, a color, or a "therapy dog."

So, this being generally true, perhaps when we recommend breeders to them we should broaden our scope from puppies WE would want to puppies THEY would want. I've seen threads recently where breeders were receiving disapproval because they don't compete. That may be important to us, but it certainly doesn't matter to most puppy buyers. How about we expand our horizons a bit, for their sake? Finding puppies WE would approve of is super hard. Why limit the pool so drastically? Let's help folks find what they are looking for.

Do you agree or disagree with this?
 
#2 ·
I agree. To an extent.

I wanted a healthy dog from health tested parents that had a good solid Golden temperament and was on the coppery golden color range.

I wasn’t going to show nor do field work so titles didn’t matter to me.

Now....the thing is, that a breeder is tested in what he/she produces. And the way to test that is against competitors.

When I had border collies I wanted that BC intelligence and drive and didn’t care about looks, but the only way to know if the intelligence was there was to have parents that had that intelligence.

Similarly, when I wanted a golden, the only way to know if the health and temperament were there is to have health test and to see how the dogs behaved. The breeders who provided that information were those that competed.

So....although I didn’t care about show or field titles, the way for me to know the breeder would provide the health and temperament I was looking for was to look for breeders who competed. I wanted a companion dog, I had burned out on dog sports and competition, but to get a pet dog I had to look for a competitive breeder.


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#3 ·
Totally agree. Our boy came from a work colleague who wanted her girl to have a litter. Dixie has an excellent pedigree, as had the sire, Rossini. Both also had excellent health scores (eye, hip etc.).

We asked for a lighter colour pup if possible but it wasn’t a deal breaker. We just wanted a lovely family pet with a good temperament and that is exactly what we have.

I paid the going rate and wouldn’t have dreamed of paying less because my colleague isn’t a show breeder.

Sometimes I do get exasperated by some of the snobbery surrounding the breed.


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#4 · (Edited)
I can see your point and agree with the compromise you are suggesting for the most part. I was looking for a dog to compete with but have many friends that just want a healthy puppy to enjoy. But...

There are so many people that post after getting their discount puppy wondering when their growing puppy will begin to look like their image of a golden. or people are posting because of behavior issues or having trouble with a dog that won't be trained or has zero focus. Then of course there is the health issues. There have been so many with joint problems, parasites, bad hearts... and many have lost those puppies. Many of these people felt like they were rescuing these pups which I totally get but they don't seem to realize when they rescue these poor babies they are actually contributing to the problem. As long as these people make money, they will continue to produce poorly bred pups.

I like a breeder that competes in some venue as it tells me the dog knows how to be a good family member. I also like to know the breeder cared enough about the pups they produce to give me a healthy pup. So where do you draw the line? If you are just producing pups because you have a male and a female and don't care about the standard is this really a good thing?

I am a pet person, I love my pets for just being in my life. They don't have to be perfect, I enjoy making them happy. I love being with them and sharing each day doing something, my girls bring so much joy into my life just being a golden. But I want them to look like a golden, act like a golden and be healthy and balanced in temperment. My 1st golden was a rescue and blessed with good health but that was almost 30 yrs ago. Too many people breed with nothing more than profit on their minds ... guess I just don't want to lower my standards because people don't know better.

I could agree with your point if these people were pricing their pups for a few hundred vs a few thousand. If I'm going to pay for a Mercedes I don't expect to get a Kia and purchase insurance on top of that.
 
#5 ·
I totally agree I'm concept. The problem is that it's rarely true that a breeder that is doing all the correct health clearances, aren't showing it titling their dogs in some venue.

For example, the recent past from the last few days with someone asking about a breeder that does not show but recently got into breeding and is doing the health clearances, they are trying to do the right thing. But that is RARE to do the clearances like that but not show.

I believe that all people want a healthy dog, that's not up for debate. I believe all people want a golden with the classic golden temperament, again no debate. I think MOST want a good looking golden, a dog that looks like a typical golden and not one with vet low ears and looks like a Setter, or they'd just get a mix.
 
#6 ·
A comment on people wanting a dog that looks like a typical Golden. All my dogs are champion show dogs. They are all bred to the standard. Yesterday, while running 6 of them at a private park, another dog owner asked me what my dogs were mixed with. She didn't recognize them as pure bred Goldens, because they actually look different from all the poorly bred, early spay/neuter Goldens that she usually sees.

I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.
 
#13 ·
“Oh is this a corgi golden mix?”

I didn’t even know how to respond 2 weeks ago. My response was, “Nope. She’s a golden retriever who’s bred to the breed standard. Her parents have their Grand Champion titles.” I just...couldn’t believe it.

As far as what I wanted, I wanted a healthy puppy who could be a therapy dog eventually. That was the main thing. But I was very interested in versatility of mom/dad. And I got that. Mom has Rally, Field titles on top of show titles. And Dad is working hard in therapy and he has his show titles. And I do not doubt he could do all other stuff. I have a 9.5 month old puppy who pays excellent attention in Rally and will start Obedience in summer (thanks first heat for cancelling spring LOL). She was at an event (one mentioned above) and a therapy organization has already said she’d pass at 9 months but has to wait. So...I am more than pleased because while she is a pet...she’s active in other avenues. Her obsession with birds makes me cringe, so we are NOT exploring that avenue because I’ll croak when a dead duck comes back with her! Lol

That being said...the more I go to dog shows the more interested I’ve become in exploring that avenue down the road (w/ a male).
 
#7 ·
I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are.

I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.
 
#9 ·
I was asked if Moe was a Gold Setter when we were away last weekend. I ended up speaking to the man and he thought he was a Golden mixed with an Irish Setter, apparently that's a thing now too. I politely explained he was a dark Golden. I've actually owned Irish Setters and Golden's and don't know why you would mix the two. I explained that Moe is from a line of dark golden's and that sometimes field bred dogs are darker and thinner. I also had Duke with me who is a conformation/field line cross, but is much more your TV commercial looking Golden. The man said "so he hunts?" and I explained they both did. He was mind blown.

I actually prefer my dogs to be of correct conformation, it's just important to me. I think the most important thing for everyone is health.

I would also like to say that sometimes even with all the clearances you can run into a problem. Doing all your research and making sure everything is correct is still not a guarantee. I was shocked when we recently had problems with Moe. I was informed by one of the top Ortho Specialty Centers that 12% of dogs with clearances from both parents can still develop joint issues. Moe has clearances on multiple generations and he is doing fine, but we've had a rough first year. I don't know what a typical puppy buyer would have done. I don't blame our breeder. I don't think we would have found out he had problems if we weren't field training though.
 
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#8 ·
I think breeders fall on a spectrum. At one end of the spectrum you have people we call backyard breeders, who have a male and a female, aren't concerned about health testing or breeding to the standard and breed them to produce a litter of goldens to sell on craigslist, the paper, to friends etc. Or commercial puppy mills and kennels just cranking out puppies for cash.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have very serious breeders that compete professionally in one venue or another, and are breeding for performance on top of the breed standard, have all health clearances and have worked hard to establish their program and their lines.

Somewhere in the middle, you have breeders who may absolutely love and cherish the breed, and for whatever reason competing is not for them. They abide by the CoE, they may have a certain "type" of dog they like to produce, heck they may even breed adhering to the standard without titling their dogs.

Let's say you have a breeder who I guess would fall in the middle of the spectrum. Breeder is a really sweet woman who you could just tell loves her dogs. This is her passion. She has a few females, one male, and is planning a litter with one of her females and another breeder's stud. She breeds for temperament as her number 1 priority and often sells pups to therapy homes. Her dogs certainly have that conformation "look". They have the core 4 clearances, and some genetic testing. Most of the dogs have CGC titles or maybe therapy certifications.

Would I take a puppy from a breeder like this if I all I wanted was a happy, healthy, companion dog? Probably. Would I recommend a breeder like that to anyone looking for a beautiful, even tempered golden family companion? Yes.

Of course there are breeders who fall elsewhere on the spectrum who sometimes do clearances, maybe get prelims and that's it, or compete here and there but not as their career path.

I think it is important to remember that a lot of folks who come to this forum know nothing about the CoE, the breed standard or how to even find a half decent breeder. Many times people wont be willing to go as far as the top end of the 'breeder' spectrum for whatever reason, but want to do their best to find a responsible breeder.

I do think there is a way to educate people on best practices while respecting that they will end up making the decision that best works for them.
 
#11 ·
I do agree HOWEVER --- FINDING a breeder who does all the health checks but does NOT compete (not even marginally....like CGC, CCA, etc) is REALLY HARD. They just aren't out there to refer people to!

Although I gotta say, I found one. Lady called me asking about stud service. She lives in my town and I've never heard of her. At first I was exceedingly skeptical. Met with her in person in hopes of an educational event. Turns out, her bitch is from very well known pedigree and has ALL her clearances. She's owned the dam's side of the pedigree for three generations. All have clearances. She's bred to decent dogs. She has a litter or two and keeps one on down the line. Dogs were happy and healthy and perfectly good golden retrievers. I was floored. I found the golden egg LOL
 
#12 ·
I do find it a bit disheartening when people want a type of dog but don't do any research on it. They will just go out and buy one and have no idea how to raise or train them. Nothing about the history or anything. When I say most people want a golden to look like a golden, that can still be 60% of people and that could leave 40% clueless. Unfortunately, I think it will always be that way. They see a dog, like it right then for the 10 mom they pet it and just go but one. Reputable breeders will screen and also hello educate but the backyard breeders are just happy to get their puppies sold no matter what most time.
 
#14 · (Edited)
*insert gif of person pulling hair out and screaming* LOL. This is me trying to organize the multitude of thoughts shooting off in different directions after reading this. :laugh:

First, before I answer this, I'll share what I look for in a puppy or how my brain works on this...

1. I want a blond to med gold colored golden. I like the dark reddish colors, but they are difficult to show in conformation so I would probably steer clear of litters where I have an idea that the pups will be very dark.

2. I like correct coats and dark DARK pigment. <= And this is a touchy one because you can't tell what kind of pigment a dog has just looking at them in the show ring. Coats are a little easier. If a dog has too much coat prior to age 3, that's a bad sign. Good coat isn't "no coat". Having a thin or single coat (instead of double coat) and no furnishings, it means the pup I bring home will probably inherit that same coat. Ditto when I see parents who can't get wet because of skin problems or their coats need to be straightened or who knows what else. I don't want my dog to look like a yak, but I want them to have a moderate thick coat with nice thick furnishings.

3. Heads and expression. This is an awkward one because I like big masculine heads on my boys, but I do not want a dog with a fat BLOB of a face. :laugh: Expressions need to be soft and friendly and sweet.

4. Structure. I like dogs to be athletic, agile, sound, well balanced and just flashy. This goes back to a time when I was sitting ringside and watching a very famous and champion of everything GSP in the obedience ring and thinking about how much I wanted a golden with that kind of structure.

5. Breeder needs to be somebody who is nice. There are breeders out there who are excellent breeders, but I've found them to be very rude to others.

6. I'd like the breeder to be active in showing in conformation. Not just because this means that they will know what's what and what should be there in a dog, but it also means they are easy to stay in touch with and the dogs grow up knowing and loving their breeders.


^^^ A good majority of show goldens out there have the right look, but I've heard or seen through the grapevine that one of the reasons why some breeders are ALWAYS breeding multiple different types of litters is they have problems producing the same types of puppies. This is why knowing more about the breeder and what they produce matters.

Clearances - are very important to me. I'm probably more casual in some areas than some people and more stringent in other areas than some people.

NCL - I know it is scary serious for some people, but I do not believe it's in the lines I'm interested in.

PU - I know it's scary serious and a real threat... but knowing the breeders and the dogs behind mine's... it helps.

Cancer - DOES scare me. I was just at the chiropractor with my Bertie and the vet and I were both crying together while talking about losing our dogs around the same period of time and how we are moving forward and healing. I was gratified learning from her that my feelings about mostly avoiding a lot of activities I enjoyed with Jacks (classes, shows, trials, big hiking trips, etc) were not just me. She went through the same. We spent a good time discussing cancer and how rapidly both our dogs failed...

The horrific thing is both she and I were very fortunate. Her dog was 8 and mine almost 11. There are dogs out there in the breed who are dying as young dogs from very rare cancers in some cases. And certain lines and breeders seem to have more bad luck than others and it's a struggle for them coming to terms with what's going on. This is a case of knowing what's rumbling in the grapevine. Some of it is obnoxious, mean spirited, resentful, ignorant and jealous gossip, but some of it is legit. For me, it all depends on who is sharing the information.

Selecting a puppy for myself - extra degree and level of consideration even when getting a pup from a good breeder with a very uniform and nice litter. There are so many considerations that go through your head and absolutely have heard of people who made wrong choices!

^^^ As you can see, there's a lot of stuff that goes through your head when selecting a puppy for yourself.

Generally speaking, when offering suggestions for people who are NOWHERE NEAR needing a good breeding prospect in a puppy - it's easier just to recommend breeders who typically are good quality (they are conscientious in what/how they breed), produce good quality puppies, are kind people, and typically have very happy puppy buyers. Those breeders have waiting lists and are more discriminating in who they select as a puppy home (one breeder has a list, including no kids under a certain age, no apartments, no electric fences, etc)


***** THAT SAID******

People who come on this forum do not inquire about those good breeders and for one reason or another they do not find anything at those breeders when pointed that direction.

Instead they inquire about really random sounding breeders who basically - I would probably turn down based on the kennel name! LOL.

I wonder what exactly these puppy buyers entered in their google search terms to find these breeders... and have a feeling it was "golden puppies + city + state" in many cases.

If you have a backyard breeder who is enterprising enough to put up a website and load up search term thingies so they will show up pretty quick on google searches - they then woo inquiring puppy buyers with lots of pictures of puppies and families and homey settings.

The dogs themselves might be very poor quality, but majority of people who know nothing about dogs - they have problems differentiating between goldens and labs. Forget about differentiating between goldens.

I literally know of people who look at a bunch of goldens in the ring and they literally think they all look the same!

People who spend their time STARING at dogs (makes us sound psychotic actually), can look in the ring and have a good idea who the breeder was.

This isn't just show goldens. I had a visiting trainer (from OH I think) who I didn't know and she didn't know anyone, falling on the floor in shock because I looked at her golden and correctly observed that she was a Wynwood. There's several different performance line goldens that are common in our area, but they do not all look the same.

But back on topic - searching puppy buyers think all goldens look the same. So if their manner of searching for a breeder involves a basic google search, they basically will end up with networking BYB's and never know better.

Alternatively, it's possible that people are trying to price search for goldens. It's amazing to me, but there's people who are pulling teeth over spending 2000 vs 1500. And maybe one of the reasons why they are inquiring about the poor quality breeders that they do... it's about money.

As well, it could be you have a family with like 10 kids under the age of 10 who are looking for a puppy with a very imaginative idea of how life will be with that dog (some people forget that dogs are domesticated animals) - who will have been turned away by every reputable breeder, with good reason. Which leads to them buying from a byb, thinking it's better than buying from a petstore (even though the dogs all come from the same place in most cases).

Regardless... I've seen so many of those types of inquiries on this forum and so many people recite the line "I just want a pet" line... so best I can say is at least make sure the clearances are all there. That is the bare minimum that people should require.

Note while I say that... there was a puppy mill put out of business here in Michigan who had full clearances on all her dogs.

Likewise, I know of a line of goldens where they have a lot of young deaths - full clearances on all the dogs.

Likewise, there are people getting full clearances on MUTTTTTTSSSS.

Just whittling requirements of quality down to such a base level - it's not any sign that you are getting a good quality puppy.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I agree with this. I couldn't care less about what titles a dog has earned but health and temperament are important. I would pay the same for a dog with good health clearances regardless of titles. Rukie's formal titled name could be Lyric Last Jedi CCP (for earning his champion couch potato) and that was all I wanted.:smile2: although we're still going to try and add CGC
I will add that having a breeder who does Avidog or other activities with the puppies is very worthwhile.
 
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#16 ·
Meant to say, but my other post was too long.

Good breeders are not just breeding for full clearances. There's a lot of stuff they are trying to keep in what they breed. It's not very different from keeping hybrid roses together and preventing them from going to root stock...

Heads
Coat
Bone
Pigment
Tail set
Balance/Structure
Color

^^^^ These are a handful of things which I know different people have really high up on their list of things they are trying to maintain in what they breed.

Seems like a lot of breeders who breed what they have - they suffer losses in those areas when not specifically breeding to maintain them.
 
#18 ·
Honestly, I mostly disagree. Not all, (some are just lazy) but most, of the people who come here looking for help finding a puppy have no idea what they don't know. This forum has an amazing opportunity to educate people on the attributes of a carefully bred Golden (or any purebred dog) and what to look for to try to identify an ethical breeder. If someone cares enough to try to come here and research, I feel strongly that we ought to point them in the direction of the same breeders we would send our own friends or family members to.

I also will say that people may say that they don't want a show dog or they don't want a hunting dog but they want sure do want a dog that is a good Golden Retriever. They don't realize that what these dogs were originally bred to do as a job is a HUGE part of what makes them such awesome companions. They might not know it, but they DO want a correct dog.

I am the perfect example of why you should set the bar high. I found my first Golden over 20 years ago by using Atlanta Golden Retriever Club via internet and phone. I hardly even knew about hip clearances. I just wanted a great family dog but I had no idea there was a difference between gun dogs and show dogs. Thanks to the club's fabulous puppy referral person, I ended up with a breeder who trained retrievers for a living and who bred her field lines to a Pekay dog: first 3 generations had 3 Field Trial champions, 2 QAA, a Master Hunter & 2 conformation champions. The puppy I brought home was as healthy and strong as an ox, no allergies, smarter than most people's children and had the drive for birds and water like you wouldn't believe and looked like an athlete. He taught me a heck of a lot about how strong inbred instinct is. He had a great temperament and wanted to please me. He is the dog who showed me that even if I don't ever compete at the highest levels, I want and deserve a rock solid Golden who was bred to retain all the traits that make Goldens so special without sacrificing health or temperament.

I had no idea when I started that I cared so much about a well bred dog, I was lucky that I had some help from people at the club level and on this forum who would teach me what I didn't know. Not every buyer will be as passionate about it as most of us here are, but I'd like to give them all a chance to see the light :)
 
#19 ·
Heh. This is my current show puppy (not really a puppy, he's 16 months old), who I have to show in Bred By this weekend. Just this morning as I was practicing stacking and gaiting him in a park because I never show my own dogs, I got asked if this boy was a mix because "his legs are so short" and "his head is so fat."



The kicker....the guy who asked me owns a Golden Retriever! What the ever lovin'....
 
#20 ·
I think there is a LOT of room for breeders who do the core clearances and some DNA... and I would love to refer people to them, whether they compete or not as long as they make good breeding choices.
That said, if we no longer care about educating these puppy people, our beloved Goldens are going to start looking like another split in the breed- not only will we have conformation dogs, and field types, and I guess I would throw in there obedience dogs, we'll have another segment called Goldens who don't look like proper Goldens. That makes me sad.
Can a breeder (like the one asked about this week earlier for example) make nice looking puppies even though they have nothing whatever to hone their eye on? Maybe- maybe even probably some of the time.. but I do not think it will be consistent production of correct, and I also do not think their line will improve at all. It doesn't take long indiscriminately breeding to lose the good one has.
And face it- even a show bred puppy probably won't look like a show dog. Pet people use groomers that don't know how to do a Golden and they don't keep their dogs looking like show dogs. .. but most of us w experience can certainly see good breeding regardless of the way the pet people keep their dogs.
 
#21 ·
Pet people use groomers that don't know how to do a Golden and they don't keep their dogs looking like show dogs.

This. It's the why that eludes me. Goldens are regularly in the top five of the "most popular breed" polls. How is it that the majority of groomers are so clueless?


Also, in regards to DanaRuns' post, maybe we all need to be walking around with pocket versions of the standard to offer to people who ask questions and make comments.
 
#22 ·
I totally agree with Prism. I've said before the point of showing is to keep the breeder in line with the breed standard and their own style or type they are breeding. My breeder has a very typy look to her goldens which i really like and other breeders tend to have their dogs look a certain way after years and decades of breeding. Similar to what Kate said earlier about Head, Bone, Structure, Coat among other things. I feel without showing and having independent people judging them, breeders would start to stray from the structure and conformation they have made their lines to be. Seeing your owns dogs from generation to generation, you likely wouldn't notice much variance until it was obvious and then how long would it take to get back to where you started then strayed from?
 
#25 ·
Buyers don't care... this is very true for so many. But "nor should they", of course they should care. If these same people spent as much time choosing a breeder as they do on selecting a car or cell phone, we wouldn't be having all these problems in the breed.

Golden rescues are full all over the country because of people that breed without caring. Doodles are a whole other problem but in some ways it's a result of the same issue. Lack of knowledge or accountability for the puppies they dump on the world... and many times priced higher than a well educated, experience breeder charges for their pups. And I'm a die hard rescue person!

Then these well meaning people want to breed their loving dog with anyone that answers an add for a stud dog. They don't seem to care that the stud dog they own has hip dysplasia. It's no longer 1950 and safe to buy a dog from the neighbor. You might get lucky but you may not. I would prefer to pay a good breeder than to pay the vets and save the heartache.
 
#26 ·
I think it is disrespectful to make these broad statements about puppy owners. I have found them to be educated wanting a well bred dog, and that is how they found me. I would only refer to breeders who make sure that all their dogs have clearances and are sound in structure and temperament and don’t breed to make a living......thus,
These breeders usually compete with their dogs.
 
#29 ·
Teresa - have you seen some of the breeders that people inquire about?

I don't think anyone was making broad statements since there are a lot of people out there who have a good idea what to avoid. Part of that is because people have been telling all that to anyone who asks or even those who never ask questions but might lurk around long enough to listen....

But that gets people accused of being snobs - even on this thread.
 
#27 ·
Yes, the bad grooming just kills me. I think the groomers have the skills but they also don’t know what the correct trim on a Golden should be. Next packet that I send home will include, helpful blown up versions of the correct trim for ears, feet, and hocks with a suggestion to not touch the hair coming off the body. If they live in town I will go to theirs homes and give individual grooming lesson. It just takes baby steps and then and slowly pet people will start seeing what a true Golden should look like....as long as vets will quit the early spay and neutering.
 
#28 ·
...as long as vets will quit the early spay and neutering.
This 100%. Could not agree more. Some of these vets just brow beat people into spaying even when they have legit reasons not to. I just wish vets would be more proactive in keeping their education up. Just seems like so many vets just graduate School and not much afterwards.
 
#30 · (Edited)
For those who think we should only refer buyers to the upper echelon of breeders from whom WE would buy a puppy, let me ask you something. Here's a hypothetical. I'm making up numbers, but the principle remains true. Here we go:

Let's say there are 1000 puppy buyers looking for an ethically bred puppy that is not from a BYB or mill.

Let's say there are 500 puppies available from breeders who breed carefully, do all available testing, and title all their dogs. Breeders WE would buy a puppy from.

That means that 500 puppy buyers aren't going to get a puppy from those breeders. So where will they go? Either:

(1) we can insist they only buy from the breeders who are now out of puppies, so they won't find one, or

(2) we can steer them to "lesser" decent breeders -- say, that get the 4 core clearances but don't compete and might not have the quality that our high standards insist on -- or

(3) we can just watch them run off to puppy mills, backyard breeders, and greeders of various sorts.​

So what's the best option for us and them, 1, 2, or 3?

It's a stone cold fact that there are more buyers looking for ethically bred puppies than there are ethically bred puppies. I think I've mentioned here that for a recent litter I had 134 bona fide buyers for 9 puppies. If you don't like my solution of lowering our sights a bit and referring to breeders who may not breed to as high a standard as we prefer but they do try, what's your solution? Or do you just want to stick to your guns, knowing that there aren't enough puppies to go around? The only solution I can think of is that we broaden the pool of available puppies by referring beyond the "A" tier breeders to the "B" tier, as well.

Do you have a different solution? Let's hear it! :)

And I still maintain that the vast majority of inquiries we see in this forum are from people who don't care if the breeder competes, aren't looking for a "show dog" or "hunting dog," and just want a healthy dog.
 
#31 ·
I totally understand the issue of supply and demand, which is intensified by the fact we live in a world of instant gratification. Everything is at our fingertips. Amazon deliveries come in two days. Prime now is same day. Information is acquired in seconds. People want puppies just as quickly.

I think for most of us here that love the breed as it's meant to be, we're willing to wait as long as possible and are unwilling to compromise on the integrity of the standard. I get that other people just want a dog right now, even if it isn't *exactly* right, and that it is good enough for their purposes. However, where do you draw the line? Past what point are you unwilling to compromise anymore? What do you do when those breeders that are doing the clearances, but don't have the highest of standards, back off their standards for convenience, or when they don't enforce spay/neuter? I'd be worried that the puppies they breed might sink further down your list into the number three category, when puppy buyers themselves decide they want to make a quick buck. What are these category 2 breeders doing to ensure that their puppies aren't going to end up in some lifetime breeding facility? In my mind, those that have the most invested in protecting the breed are those that put the most into the breed. If you aren't putting anything in, then chances are that you don't care enough about what happens to the breed in the long run, and we'd see a breed split, as Prism referenced. Additionally, how do you identify a situation where someone starts doing clearances to avoid getting called out on a board like this, but the overall intentions remain the same, which is simply to make money as quickly as possible?

I don't have an answer, but maybe the solution would be to start contacting these people that fall into your second category and help them learn, so that their dogs move towards the standard rather than away? Perhaps by bringing them into the fold, there's an inherent monitoring system brought in. If the most knowledgeable people start a conversation with them, perhaps they'd learn better practices, they'd develop an eye for the breed, learn how to better profile buyers, etc. I'm not certain how you'd mobilize a force to do this, but it seems like it might work, in theory.
 
#32 ·
I think that one common problem for puppy buyers is that they put to much emphasis on AKC Registration. They think that if the dog is AKC registered that is enough. It must be good, right??? I know that 20 years ago I myself felt that way. I personally am disappointed with the AKC and it's marketplace advertisements. Many people in my area looking for a puppy don't know about GRCA. There isn't a GRCA group in Delaware and unfortunately we are very close to the puppy mills in PA.

I had a group of people that wanted me to breed Duke. My sons a hunting guide and these people had been on day trips with Duke and my son. I ultimately declined to do it. I'm not a breeder, and I don't really want to be. I do love the breed, and only want what's best for it as a whole. I instead offered to help each of them find what I considered to be a reputable breeder. These people weren't looking for what I look for, but wanted my dog. My dog is 8, he's had years of training, he goes everywhere with me. They all thought he was "just a great Golden". Two of them specifically wanted a hunting dog, like Duke. Duke is a lucky break for our family. His sire is from a great field line, but his dam is a show dog. He doesn't look like your typical field golden.

Of the four people one bought a Golden Doodle, one bought a Golden from a breeder that also breeds doodles, and two bought nicely bred local yellow labs.

The one that bought the Golden from the doodle breeder was the one that got me. I spent hours talking to him about what to look for. He called me one day and sent me pictures of his puppy he had just put a deposit on. It was supposed to be 6 weeks old, but didn't look it to me. I looked up where it came from and immediately called him back. He said "we are tired of waiting, it's AKC registered". He got it and it had parasites. He ended up spending about $1500 in the first two months he had it. He was adamant it was going to be a great hunting dog. This little guy was the most laid back Golden puppy I had ever seen.

He brought it out for a play date after I got my latest puppy. His dog would have been a good 8 months older then mine. Moe ran circles around this puppy. He thought Moe was the craziest puppy he'd ever seen. He said "are you sure you have a golden"? Moe was swimming, retrieving toys, already healing off leash....

He was just thinking about calling a field trainer and wanted names. I explained that we would work with Moe on all the basics until he was 6 months old, and then our trainer would take him for some specific field training that we didn't feel qualified to do. He said then what do you pay the trainer for?

I saw him the other day. My trainer is apparently an idiot. He took his dog out and the trainer said he would never make a good candidate for field work. He has an AKC registered Golden and Golden's are naturally field dogs. I don't know how I could have better educated him. I tried. He paid more for his dog then I did. He just didn't want to wait.
 
#33 ·
I totally get your logic ... I prefer to wait it out. However directing people to breeders that don't show but are doing their best to provide healthy, ethically bred puppies a good alternative.

Guess my only protest is the price and deception that runs rampid from unethical breeders. It's hard enough to distinguish the good from the bad. Sorry for the car reference but it's the only way I know how to equate my position. If you purchase a car there are several options/features for each model and each level is priced accordingly. Not true for breeders / puppies.

This helps people/consumers to clearly know what they are paying for. How do you do this with puppies / breeders? There is a current post about getting a senior from a highly respected breeder.... highly respected by who? The dog has heartworms for goodness sakes! Clearly the title of Highly respected" is questionable for this breeder. But how are people to know??

So who sets the standards? How can people know the rating system? If poorly bred pups are costing as much if not more for pups from ethical, knowledgeable breeders how do people know? Should the GRCA give breeders a "quality/ethical breeder" rating? Could all this be as simple as go with GRCA (or breed club) members only? When AKC allows unethical breeders to post pups on their Marketplace it certainly doesn't help the situation. If AKC is for the "purebred" dog they should step it up a notch so people know who is good and who is not. This could be as simple as refusing to post if they do not follow the breed Coe or a breed club member.

I understand what you are saying but to do this there has to be some clear guidelines and the governing parties need to be onboard to support it. So many people are trying to find the good breeders and need a simple way to know what they are spending the bucks on. How do we do this? But do agree with a "b" level for getting a pup from someone doing clearances but not showing. But again, where are the guidelines for what makes certain breeders "A" and "B" quality? and where do they find this info?
 
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