Buyers don't care, nor should they. - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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Buyers don't care, nor should they.

Puppy buyers don't want a show dog. They don't want a hunting dog. They don't care about conformation or suitability for original purpose. Structure isn't high on their list. The breed standard means nothing to them. They don't care if the breeder is competing with her dogs. And why should they? All they are looking for is a companion, and until they came here they didn't even know about all that stuff. What they care about is having a generally healthy dog with the famous Golden temperament. If they want anything specific at all it's usually a sex, a color, or a "therapy dog."

So, this being generally true, perhaps when we recommend breeders to them we should broaden our scope from puppies WE would want to puppies THEY would want. I've seen threads recently where breeders were receiving disapproval because they don't compete. That may be important to us, but it certainly doesn't matter to most puppy buyers. How about we expand our horizons a bit, for their sake? Finding puppies WE would approve of is super hard. Why limit the pool so drastically? Let's help folks find what they are looking for.

Do you agree or disagree with this?
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post #2 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:12 PM
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I agree. To an extent.

I wanted a healthy dog from health tested parents that had a good solid Golden temperament and was on the coppery golden color range.

I wasnít going to show nor do field work so titles didnít matter to me.

Now....the thing is, that a breeder is tested in what he/she produces. And the way to test that is against competitors.

When I had border collies I wanted that BC intelligence and drive and didnít care about looks, but the only way to know if the intelligence was there was to have parents that had that intelligence.

Similarly, when I wanted a golden, the only way to know if the health and temperament were there is to have health test and to see how the dogs behaved. The breeders who provided that information were those that competed.

So....although I didnít care about show or field titles, the way for me to know the breeder would provide the health and temperament I was looking for was to look for breeders who competed. I wanted a companion dog, I had burned out on dog sports and competition, but to get a pet dog I had to look for a competitive breeder.


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post #3 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:17 PM
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Totally agree. Our boy came from a work colleague who wanted her girl to have a litter. Dixie has an excellent pedigree, as had the sire, Rossini. Both also had excellent health scores (eye, hip etc.).

We asked for a lighter colour pup if possible but it wasnít a deal breaker. We just wanted a lovely family pet with a good temperament and that is exactly what we have.

I paid the going rate and wouldnít have dreamed of paying less because my colleague isnít a show breeder.

Sometimes I do get exasperated by some of the snobbery surrounding the breed.


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post #4 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:54 PM
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I can see your point and agree with the compromise you are suggesting for the most part. I was looking for a dog to compete with but have many friends that just want a healthy puppy to enjoy. But...

There are so many people that post after getting their discount puppy wondering when their growing puppy will begin to look like their image of a golden. or people are posting because of behavior issues or having trouble with a dog that won't be trained or has zero focus. Then of course there is the health issues. There have been so many with joint problems, parasites, bad hearts... and many have lost those puppies. Many of these people felt like they were rescuing these pups which I totally get but they don't seem to realize when they rescue these poor babies they are actually contributing to the problem. As long as these people make money, they will continue to produce poorly bred pups.

I like a breeder that competes in some venue as it tells me the dog knows how to be a good family member. I also like to know the breeder cared enough about the pups they produce to give me a healthy pup. So where do you draw the line? If you are just producing pups because you have a male and a female and don't care about the standard is this really a good thing?

I am a pet person, I love my pets for just being in my life. They don't have to be perfect, I enjoy making them happy. I love being with them and sharing each day doing something, my girls bring so much joy into my life just being a golden. But I want them to look like a golden, act like a golden and be healthy and balanced in temperment. My 1st golden was a rescue and blessed with good health but that was almost 30 yrs ago. Too many people breed with nothing more than profit on their minds ... guess I just don't want to lower my standards because people don't know better.

I could agree with your point if these people were pricing their pups for a few hundred vs a few thousand. If I'm going to pay for a Mercedes I don't expect to get a Kia and purchase insurance on top of that.

Last edited by puddles everywhere; 04-16-2019 at 01:37 PM.
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post #5 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:58 PM
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I totally agree I'm concept. The problem is that it's rarely true that a breeder that is doing all the correct health clearances, aren't showing it titling their dogs in some venue.

For example, the recent past from the last few days with someone asking about a breeder that does not show but recently got into breeding and is doing the health clearances, they are trying to do the right thing. But that is RARE to do the clearances like that but not show.

I believe that all people want a healthy dog, that's not up for debate. I believe all people want a golden with the classic golden temperament, again no debate. I think MOST want a good looking golden, a dog that looks like a typical golden and not one with vet low ears and looks like a Setter, or they'd just get a mix.

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post #6 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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A comment on people wanting a dog that looks like a typical Golden. All my dogs are champion show dogs. They are all bred to the standard. Yesterday, while running 6 of them at a private park, another dog owner asked me what my dogs were mixed with. She didn't recognize them as pure bred Goldens, because they actually look different from all the poorly bred, early spay/neuter Goldens that she usually sees.

I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.
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post #7 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:18 PM
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I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are.

I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.

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post #8 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:22 PM
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I think breeders fall on a spectrum. At one end of the spectrum you have people we call backyard breeders, who have a male and a female, aren't concerned about health testing or breeding to the standard and breed them to produce a litter of goldens to sell on craigslist, the paper, to friends etc. Or commercial puppy mills and kennels just cranking out puppies for cash.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have very serious breeders that compete professionally in one venue or another, and are breeding for performance on top of the breed standard, have all health clearances and have worked hard to establish their program and their lines.

Somewhere in the middle, you have breeders who may absolutely love and cherish the breed, and for whatever reason competing is not for them. They abide by the CoE, they may have a certain "type" of dog they like to produce, heck they may even breed adhering to the standard without titling their dogs.

Let's say you have a breeder who I guess would fall in the middle of the spectrum. Breeder is a really sweet woman who you could just tell loves her dogs. This is her passion. She has a few females, one male, and is planning a litter with one of her females and another breeder's stud. She breeds for temperament as her number 1 priority and often sells pups to therapy homes. Her dogs certainly have that conformation "look". They have the core 4 clearances, and some genetic testing. Most of the dogs have CGC titles or maybe therapy certifications.

Would I take a puppy from a breeder like this if I all I wanted was a happy, healthy, companion dog? Probably. Would I recommend a breeder like that to anyone looking for a beautiful, even tempered golden family companion? Yes.

Of course there are breeders who fall elsewhere on the spectrum who sometimes do clearances, maybe get prelims and that's it, or compete here and there but not as their career path.

I think it is important to remember that a lot of folks who come to this forum know nothing about the CoE, the breed standard or how to even find a half decent breeder. Many times people wont be willing to go as far as the top end of the 'breeder' spectrum for whatever reason, but want to do their best to find a responsible breeder.

I do think there is a way to educate people on best practices while respecting that they will end up making the decision that best works for them.
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post #9 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweet Girl View Post
I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are.

I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.
I was asked if Moe was a Gold Setter when we were away last weekend. I ended up speaking to the man and he thought he was a Golden mixed with an Irish Setter, apparently that's a thing now too. I politely explained he was a dark Golden. I've actually owned Irish Setters and Golden's and don't know why you would mix the two. I explained that Moe is from a line of dark golden's and that sometimes field bred dogs are darker and thinner. I also had Duke with me who is a conformation/field line cross, but is much more your TV commercial looking Golden. The man said "so he hunts?" and I explained they both did. He was mind blown.

I actually prefer my dogs to be of correct conformation, it's just important to me. I think the most important thing for everyone is health.

I would also like to say that sometimes even with all the clearances you can run into a problem. Doing all your research and making sure everything is correct is still not a guarantee. I was shocked when we recently had problems with Moe. I was informed by one of the top Ortho Specialty Centers that 12% of dogs with clearances from both parents can still develop joint issues. Moe has clearances on multiple generations and he is doing fine, but we've had a rough first year. I don't know what a typical puppy buyer would have done. I don't blame our breeder. I don't think we would have found out he had problems if we weren't field training though.
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post #10 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweet Girl View Post
I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are.

I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.
I have had that too. Not a ton, but some. They will ask what breed she is or if she's pure bred. It make me laugh. They ask what's so funny. So I explain that she what a golden is supposed to look like and that there are field Goldens with less bone that can be Reddish in color. They look at me like I'm crazy sometimes.

I also love the fact when other golden owners see Maggie a couple have ask what kind of dog or she's so small is she mixed lol. Again I just chuckle and explain. I think I said before I need brochures to just hand out.

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