Would this be a good litter? - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Would this be a good litter?

Hello. I came across this litter and was wondering if this would be considered a good litter. Are there any red flags? The puppies are $3500 if that matters.

This is the sire: https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=600642

This is the dam: Pedigree: Southern Dewdream Lujza


Also, how valuable is early neurological stimulation and the Volhard test which this breeder seems to be doing. Will I get a better suited puppy from a breeder that does these tests?



Thank you so much for any help and advice you can give me. I've been searching for a puppy on and off for about 9 months now. It's been a slow process but I don't want to rush into anything without making the best informed decision.
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 09:41 PM
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Both parents have full clearances - which makes me happy.

So many of these breeders out there who import dogs or use those kinds of lines do not do their due diligence in checking everything out.

Mom is presumed to be a carrier or affected with ichythosis - so they bred her to a dog who was clear! Which again, is awesome.

Good on them.

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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 10:34 PM
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Health certification-wise everything is good. I don’t know the bitch owner but I do know the stud dog owner and a nicer person you could not find.

The price tag is high especially, for a pet. You could get a puppy from titled parents (In a competitive venue, the IABCA titles are not competitive) with full health certifications for at least $1000.00 less if color is taken out of the equation. You are paying a premium for color which is sadly common. I know of litters from European lines where there were full health certifications and Canadian Champion sires that were much less. The breeders of those litters are not focused on color so they don’t do the whole up-price for color for a litter even when both parents have been imported on top of the cost of being shown.

Actually this price tag is about how much I spent to buy my Italian girl and the plane ticket to go get her from Italy. I got a lovely dog and a trip of a lifetime for about that cost.

So is it a good litter? I would say yes and much better than most breeders who use the made-up “English Cream” marketing term. You will have to decide if you are willing to overspend by roughly 140% to get a certain color though.


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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 06:28 AM
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They have obviously straightened up their act and that is a good thing... https://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...t-breeder.html (Finding the right breeder)


To your question on the Volhard and ENS- these are things most breeders do. There are two temperament tests for dogs widely available, the Volhard and the Avidog. Avidog is created FOR Goldens but most decent breeders know how to adjust the Volhard to make it more 'Golden appropriate'.
The ENS- Same thing- most breeders do these things... it's not something special and while I do think it makes a difference it is not THAT big a difference unless a litter is not handled at all, then I am sure it would make a huge difference.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 08:46 AM
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$3500.00 seems very high but perhaps that’s the going price in that area. I purchased my pup, 6 mos ago from a “home raised” breeder with full clearances for $2000.00. I paid the same price for my now 11 year old Golden from a different breeder. Good luck with your search.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincgold View Post
$3500.00 seems very high but perhaps that’s the going price in that area. I purchased my pup, 6 mos ago from a “home raised” breeder with full clearances for $2000.00. I paid the same price for my now 11 year old Golden from a different breeder. Good luck with your search.
It is not the going price for that area.

I would expect a well bred puppy from parents with full health certifications and accomplishments in AKC and or UKC and with ENS and temperament testing would be in the $1800-2500 ball park.

That is why the OP needs to decide if they are willing to overpay so much for a surface trait like color. It’s like deciding to pay $3.50 for a $2.50 jug of milk just because the label is a different color. Some people might be willing to do so but hopefully they are doing consciously.


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Last edited by LJack; 03-23-2019 at 10:16 AM.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prism Goldens View Post
They have obviously straightened up their act and that is a good thing... https://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...t-breeder.html (Finding the right breeder)


To your question on the Volhard and ENS- these are things most breeders do. There are two temperament tests for dogs widely available, the Volhard and the Avidog. Avidog is created FOR Goldens but most decent breeders know how to adjust the Volhard to make it more 'Golden appropriate'.
The ENS- Same thing- most breeders do these things... it's not something special and while I do think it makes a difference it is not THAT big a difference unless a litter is not handled at all, then I am sure it would make a huge difference.

Hmmm....so this is my dilemma. I am looking into two litters. This litter has all the clearances in order but from reading the responses here, I would be overpaying by a lot. The "english cream" color was never my preference but I thought I would "compromise" on color to get a puppy from a breeder who has all the clearances and does the Volhard and ENS. The other litter I was looking into has the more traditional color but the breeder does not do the Volhard or ENS. Can I get your thoughts on this? I don't know if the puppies are being handled. I would assume so but would be nice to hear if you or anyone else knows this breeder.

Here's link for the sire: https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=636763

Here's the link for the dam: Pedigree: Pendery's Ewe Move Mee
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 11:09 AM
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Oh, I would 1000% go with Penny's litter- she has much experience, is very hands on, and has roots deep in the GR Community... even if she doesn't call it ENS I'm certain she does do many, many hands on things w her puppies... I don't advertise ENS either- but I do the exercises just as a matter of part of my program. And she probably also temperament tests, even if she doesn't use the Volhard test it is really not a GR test anyway.
Plus.. and this is a big thing to my mind at least... she is very involved in Goldens across multiple venues. The other people are not involved at all and never were- they just became breeders. Penny started breeding for her own show dogs, as most ethical breeders did.
It wouldn't even be a moment's choice for me personally.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 02:14 PM
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I would agree. Assuming you get an up to date eye exam on the mom, Pendery is a more experienced dog person.

I don’t know her but I can see she is active with her dogs. Breeders like this are normally breeding for their future competition partner. You can’t, (especially as an owner handler) be competitive if you aren’t doing a good job of socializing and temperament testing your puppies. Shy, fearful, spooky, unfocused, untrainable dogs just can’t win. So, breeders that complete raise litters well because though they are likely only going to keep one, they probably won’t know which until 7-8 weeks old. The need all the puppies to be well socialized and confident. A show dog’s life when not being a pet is full of travel, being throughly touched by strangers, being in close proximity to a lot of other dogs, being in loud environments, and still being able to focus.

I also agree that a lot of great breedes don’t really brag about ENS or temperament testing because to most, it is a given. Kind of like advertising a car has four wheels.


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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 05:22 PM
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The first litter sounds very high in price. I live in California, where pups are very expensive. I bred this boy Pedigree: Esquire's Two Aces Up My Sleeve BPISS BOSS with that pedigree, and we do ENS and the Avidog temperament testing, and we sold the puppies from this litter for $2500 if I recall.

You don't say how much the pups from the second litter are, but I would definitely prefer that litter, all other things being equal.
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