@Charliethree - I didn't direct my comment at you really, because I don't believe you compete in obedience with your dogs. When it comes to pet training - you honestly could probably keep a bag of treats around your neck at all times if that's what gets your dogs to obey. You could also babble nonstop at your dogs. Strap a corrective collar like a gentle leader around the dogs noses every time you go for a walk and keep your dog in a harness, etc... whatever works.
In the obedience ring though - you can't use treats. You can't use any corrective collars (choke chains are allowed, but the judge is watching to make sure the leash is maintained in the J shape and is kept loose, no contact on the collar). Harnesses, prongs, etc, are not allowed. The owners may not talk to their dogs during heeling exercises, the dogs are expected to sit automatically and for that matter do every exercise out there without on the spot rewards.
Even body language means points taken off if the judge deems you are giving your dog double commands. A good example, by the way, is something I'm working on correcting - when calling my dog to front (ring length recall), I have to hold my head a certain way and lock it in place. If I'm gradually lowering my head as the dog comes - it can be seen by the judge as guiding the dog into place. Same thing with the finish - if I'm turning my head and looking where I want my dog to go, that's points off.
Hand position is also something that is watched by the judge. On leash there is some corners you can cut as far as holding the leash at your hip... but off leash, your hand has to either be hanging loose at your side or held flat over your stomach (most golden people keep the hand over their stomach because we don't want to hit our dogs on the heads or "block" them). <= This means on the off leash, your hand is not allowed to be used for guiding/keeping the dog in heel position.
A lot of people who have not trained for the obedience ring - but are getting into obedience through rally have problems with the excess cheerleading and body language. And unfortunately when the dogs notice they aren't being reminded to work every few steps - they are looking around and sniffing the floor in the ring, and so on.
Using corrections in many cases isn't PUNISHING the dogs for doing something wrong. It can be something like correcting the dog when you see the nose dropping to the floor. The dog looks up and is rewarded (praise or treats or RELEASE) and this is balanced training. IE Rewards based training but balanced with fair corrections when needed. These corrections help polish each and every exercise so you lose as few points as possible in the ring. The dogs learn fairly quickly what's right or wrong when you're not just marking when they are right, but stopping them from being wrong.
Most people who do well in obedience competition use balanced training of some kind. You do have some who will not use corrections... and it doesn't always work out for them.
A friend of mine has a dog who is brilliant. Not a golden - and definitely smarter than a golden.
This dog is trained with positive only stuff. No corrections. And he walks all over her. He is one of those dogs who is still doing stuff that should have been stopped 5 years ago. The owner has her hands tied because he knows he can get away with it.
^ This is a prime example of why more people are not impressed with positive only training. It works for all dogs when the dogs will never be put in a position where they would be overly tested... it doesn't work for all dogs in other situations.
Corrections are not punishments (or not always). Generally, you want to stop your dog in the act of doing something wrong vs going after them after they've already done something wrong.
People out there who should not own a dog are those who literally punish the dogs. Like the dog peed on the carpet - and the owner has a temper tantrum at the dog. Yelling, screaming, rubbing the dog's nose in the carpet, hauling the dog outside to "think about what he did wrong"... and so on.
People like this do not learn all this in obedience class. Lot of people I know who train this way are people who think obedience classes are a waste of time and a scam. They train the dogs like their parents trained the dogs, etc.
I'm saying all this at all, because you do have a lot of people getting brainwashed into thinking that there is only one way to train their dogs. And they're all thinking this is Star Wars and it's good side vs bad side and only the two extreme ends exist.