Losing faith in Positive Focused, Aversive Free training - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-18-2015, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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Losing faith in Positive Focused, Aversive Free training

It just doesn't seem to be stopping unwanted behaviours or teaching behave one way as opposed to another.

I found myself searching for other options. Thanks to a member of this forum I came across Gary Wilkes. The more I read from his blog and website the more his "bonker" methods make sense to me. According to the all knowing Internet he is the one who brought clicker training dogs to the masses.

Contrast: The Secret to Changing Behaviors Effectively Pt. 1 | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training

Last edited by Doug; 02-19-2015 at 10:38 PM.
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-18-2015, 09:27 PM
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I knew of Gary Wilkes - but until about a year ago I thought he must have gone on to other things or passed away - I hadn't seen anything recent until a few of his blog posts started going around.

The challenge with his writing is he is writing in a way to create specific emotional responses in his readers.

He says enough things that are true that R+ people don't acknowledge or want to discuss - but also he says some things that are completely incorrect - that makes it much harder to evaluate the info than when someone writes things that are all (or primarily!) incorrect!

Do challenge R+ training - there are weaknesses to everything - we just need to be objective and careful in accessing everything as well as the sources.

This person I think has done a good job of addressing R+ misconceptions - again - biased source becuase she is for R+ training - however it seems like her writing style and content is quite objective?
R+ Misconceptions - eileenanddogseileenanddogs

(and an addition - I dont' have "faith" in R+ - I trust it to work if applied correctly becuase, by definition, that has to happen. Sure it gets hard with behaviors that have been long practiced or that are easily or heavily rewarded or reflexive - but I have rarely felt a behavior was unable to be changed).
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-18-2015, 11:01 PM
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Could you be more specific? A lot of the time when an effective technique doesn't work, regardless of which quadrant is used, it's because a common mistake is being made by the handler. For example, most of the tried-and-true methods to get puppies to stop biting will eventually work, whether they're "positive only" or not, but there are some common mistakes that new owners make that can increase biting.

So maybe if you gave a run down of where you're getting stuck, you could get options (both +R focused and otherwise) that could help.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-18-2015, 11:31 PM
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In the world of dogs (let human "feel good" sentiments aside) how do they behave? Do they redirect, jugu jugu the pups? NO. They put the other dog in place and it is up to that dog to either learn quickly or push the other dog's buttons.
Each dog is different just like each person is different. Some learn quick and some take longer or a firmer hand.


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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2015, 02:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tippykayak View Post
For example, most of the tried-and-true methods to get puppies to stop biting will eventually work

That's one thing that has had me thinking a lot lately actually.

A lot of threads on here about puppy biting have people talking about redirection, back turning etc. and it tends to be summed up with advice "it took a while but he/she eventually got it". Another trend in these threads are the ages of these puppies, usually 3-4 months and 7-8 months of age. It has me really questioning whether it's the passive, positive methods or if the dog has just finished the teething periods. If it is the latter than attributing it to the positive methods is a false positive.
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2015, 02:40 AM
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Good read thanks for the link

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2015, 02:57 AM
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I think it has a lot to do with the growth spurts they go through..they look so cute on the outside but it's driving them nuts on the inside and each dog deals with it differently..why do you think breeder want to gone at 6 to 7 weeks. lol
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2015, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwimDog View Post
The challenge with his writing is he is writing in a way to create specific emotional responses in his readers.

He says enough things that are true that R+ people don't acknowledge or want to discuss - but also he says some things that are completely incorrect - that makes it much harder to evaluate the info than when someone writes things that are all (or primarily!) incorrect!

I think depending on your point of view you can approach the articles you linked to with the same thoughts.

Very interestingly she quotes B.F. Skinner, the very same behaviourist Wilkes trashes time and time again.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2015, 04:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tippykayak View Post
So maybe if you gave a run down of where you're getting stuck, you could get options (both +R focused and otherwise) that could help.

One from this morning's walk.

I take Millie past our little local shopping centre to get her used to automatic doors, cars and people. It's only 7am so there's not many cars or people so I can stack the cards in my favour.

As we crossed the road to the car park that runs around the perimeter of the shopping centre we were coming up to a plastic bag. Rather than totally avoid it I try and use opportunities like this for training, like most people I suspect. As we approached I gave the command "leave it". Now Millie is 8 months 10 days old so we've worked with "leave it" for 6 months, there are no questions that she knows what it means and in various situations. Despite that she still stopped and dived in to the bag. What she came up with was the leftovers of a Subway sandwich. Completely blew off my command.

Reading her face and body language I knew she didn't want to give it up, and that if she wasn't on lead she would run. "Drop" had nil effect. I had fresh chicken breast on me, we are working on loose walking and focus, and swap was ignored. I ended up having to pry her jaws open to retrieve the bread. After doing so I offered her the chicken again and she refused. Again, reading her told me that she had more so in I went again.

The night before hand she swallowed something whilst I was asking for a swap/leave it.

I'm glad that neither the Subway nor what she had swallowed the night before were toxic. But it concerns me that she has the confidence to disobey "leave it".
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2015, 04:32 AM
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It was clearly a higher reward then what you had to offer.

I bet he was thinking I can smell something amazing I hope he walks me passed there... Oh boy oh boy he is he is walking passed there oh boy. It's on like donkey kong.

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