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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by solinvictus View Post
"This is exactly what our training taught us, and precisely what we've been doing. We never call him to come to put the leash on. Instead, we wait till he's near us, then without saying anything, we put his leash on but don't immediately leave the park. We walk around a bit before leaving"

Actually, what you are doing is different than what CharlieThree suggested.

Charliethree wrote: "Once inside the park, have him sit to be released, once released, give him some time to burn some energy, time your recall for when he is taking a break from playing. When he comes, praise and reward if he will take it and imm ediately release him to go play, showing him that coming to you does not always mean the fun is over. Repeat, repeat"

She also suggested something different for Walnut not obeying when distracted.

Charliethree wrote:The only way he gets to go where he wants to go, is by keeping the leash loose and staying calm. Be consistent and practice calm approaches with anything that gets him excited, and don't let him approach if he is not staying calm, stop or move away if need be.

You may even have to go to the park, get out of your car and train right there without Walnut even getting to play at the park when you first start training this.
Sorry, perhaps I didn't respond with enough detail
But we do call him back, praise and release, then do again in 5-10 minutes. Our trainer said the idea is to not let their focus get too far away from you. So by recalling him every few minutes, his attention will always be with you. It also encourages him to come back, because he knows he can go back and play some more.

This used to work great, and his recall really was %100 until about 3 months into our dog walks (which we no longer do).

As for teaching him to stay calm and preventing approaching, we do this as well. We do when he wants to approach other dogs or people.

And we have ask our neighbours to not approach him when he is excited. They were all happy to help us. So basically what we did was, when someone he knew came up to pet him, they would stop once they saw him getting excited and walked back a few steps. Once he calmed down, they would walk forward again. We do this until he can be approached while staying calm. We're still working on this as we were never able to perfect it %100.


"You may even have to go to the park, get out of your car and train right there without Walnut even getting to play at the park when you first start training this."

I love this idea. This is actually pretty genius, and I can't believe we never thought about it. I know he's going to be super distracted with the dogs playing inside, which would be a great opportunity to train outside!!

Thanks for the tip. I'll try this method this weekend and share the results. When should we stop? I mean, when do we know he's had enough? Also, do we take him back to the car once i have his full attention? I want him to know that seeing other dogs doesn't always mean playtime, in a way were he doesn't like he's being punished for something.

I really think the 6 months of dog walks at the park made him forget his manners. We could call from a group of 10 dogs in the middle of play, at the end of the field, and he would ALWAYS run back to us for a treat, then run back to play again.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2012, 09:10 AM
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"Thanks for the tip. I'll try this method this weekend and share the results. When should we stop? I mean, when do we know he's had enough?"

Dogs are really smart. If they know they will eventually get what they want they know they can play you and wait you out as you will eventually give them what they want.

You need to be consistent. You need to be firm but fair. And you need to reward for all good behaviors.

It really is all about the focus on you. If you take a step and he looses focus. You train that one step until you get solid focus. That means no park that day. I would only train it for a few minutes. Otherwise it just frustrates you and the dog. I then try to end up on a good note either getting Walnut to offer a few behaviors that he will do easily in that spot. And use major rewards.
It is what Charliethree said Walnut does not get to do what he wants if you don't get what you want. It could happen in one day if he holds his focus the whole way or it could take those few minutes for a week or two.
At home training I would only work with his kibble. For places of high distraction I would work with really high valued treats.
If your dog loves the game of tug I would practice very short games of tugging at home. (15 to 30 seconds only) After he outs/gives I would ask for a behavior.
another game.
This may look silly but in the yard I would then get the tug toy play the 30 seconds don't ask for the out and walk away fast if he runs with you close to a heel position I would give the tug a few tugs and let go and walk on. I would then change up and go the other way. This will be fun for Walnut and build up memory for him to be by your side and also make him think it is fun to be by your side.

If he can do this and loves the game of tug I would use that as the reward when you are practicing going to the park. So sometimes I would use the high value food and sometimes I would use the tug.
After Walnut is giving you some of what you want going to the park you can put a long line on him and play the back and forth tug game a little. This again will build up a happy memory of being at your side.

Training sessions really shouldn't go more than about 5 minutes at a time. But you build up to that 5 minutes. And if you incorporate the toys into the training rewards you can do lots more training sessions throughout each day.

Many trainers/handlers use life rewards. Such as sniffing the grass or something else the dog likes to do in the enviroment. There is a scientific principle called Premack.
An example of this was when your mom would say if you eat everything on your plate you get to watch your favorite movie or you get to go play outside.

You figure out what safe enviromental things are really important to Walnut and you can incorporate letting him do those things while training.
Food, toys, and life rewards gives you more rewards in your training tool box.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solinvictus View Post
"Thanks for the tip. I'll try this method this weekend and share the results. When should we stop? I mean, when do we know he's had enough?"

Dogs are really smart. If they know they will eventually get what they want they know they can play you and wait you out as you will eventually give them what they want.

You need to be consistent. You need to be firm but fair. And you need to reward for all good behaviors.

It really is all about the focus on you. If you take a step and he looses focus. You train that one step until you get solid focus. That means no park that day. I would only train it for a few minutes. Otherwise it just frustrates you and the dog. I then try to end up on a good note either getting Walnut to offer a few behaviors that he will do easily in that spot. And use major rewards.
It is what Charliethree said Walnut does not get to do what he wants if you don't get what you want. It could happen in one day if he holds his focus the whole way or it could take those few minutes for a week or two.
At home training I would only work with his kibble. For places of high distraction I would work with really high valued treats.
If your dog loves the game of tug I would practice very short games of tugging at home. (15 to 30 seconds only) After he outs/gives I would ask for a behavior.
another game.
This may look silly but in the yard I would then get the tug toy play the 30 seconds don't ask for the out and walk away fast if he runs with you close to a heel position I would give the tug a few tugs and let go and walk on. I would then change up and go the other way. This will be fun for Walnut and build up memory for him to be by your side and also make him think it is fun to be by your side.

If he can do this and loves the game of tug I would use that as the reward when you are practicing going to the park. So sometimes I would use the high value food and sometimes I would use the tug.
After Walnut is giving you some of what you want going to the park you can put a long line on him and play the back and forth tug game a little. This again will build up a happy memory of being at your side.

Training sessions really shouldn't go more than about 5 minutes at a time. But you build up to that 5 minutes. And if you incorporate the toys into the training rewards you can do lots more training sessions throughout each day.

Many trainers/handlers use life rewards. Such as sniffing the grass or something else the dog likes to do in the enviroment. There is a scientific principle called Premack.
An example of this was when your mom would say if you eat everything on your plate you get to watch your favorite movie or you get to go play outside.

You figure out what safe enviromental things are really important to Walnut and you can incorporate letting him do those things while training.
Food, toys, and life rewards gives you more rewards in your training tool box.
This is great information, solinvictus. Thank you so much.
I got pretty antsy last night, and decided to start training again early. I wanted to see at what point he loses focus.

- I started inside at home, with no distractions - no problem
- Elevator - no problem
- lobby area in our condo - no problem (as in I have his full attention)
- Took him for a walk around the block - no problem (no pulling, and looks up at me every 5-10 seconds)

We stopped on the sidewalk (he sits on my right when I stop), and i gave him the "Go Sniff" command. So he did. I joined him on the grass, and suddenly, getting his attention was MUCH harder.

So I ended up having a quick 3-4 minute training session there just to get his attention (click + treat for eye contact). Eventually I was able to get a solid 7-8 seconds of eye contact. I'm going to go back to all the basics again - only outdoors and away from other dogs, parks, etc. Just on grass.

I took him out BEFORE dinner last night, and had given him a smaller breakfast. He FINALLY accepted his treats (cheese), and was very willing to train. We normally feed him 1 cup in the morning, and 2 cups at night. Instead, I gave him 1/2 cup in the morning, and 2 cups after training.

I took him outside this morning before work for another quick 5-10 minute training session. He responded quite well to "come" on long leash. When he came back, I clicked, treated, and told him to "go sniff". I did this 10-12 times successfully. The 13th time, he did not respond and just kept sniffing, so I just left it at that and moved on to other basic things (sit, down, stay, leave it, touch, etc) on grass. He performed all the basic commands with no issues on grass this morning.


I noticed a few things, and I'm wondering if you've ever encountered this:

DAY TIME
- He's much more focused during daylight, and MUCH easier to train.
- When he walks next to me in daytime, he never looks behind him. He always looking forward, left, right and up at me.

NIGHT TIME
- When it's night time, he loses focus very quickly
- He seems to "scan" A LOT
- He's constantly turning his head to look back on night walks (no pulling or stopping, just looks back a lot)
- When he sits by my right side, his ear perk up and eyes seem to focus on the smallest moving objects (night time) and he hardly looks up at me.
- Last night, I had him in a long down position, but his focus was completely on HVAC system noise on a nearby building. I could not get his focus until the noise stopped.
- When he seems people moving in the dark, across the street, he seems to focus too much on them.


I didn't just notice this last night. I've been watching his behaviour and noticed these things overtime. He gets frequent night time walks, and has been since he was 8 weeks. He hasn't had any negative experiences during night that would scare him. Strangely enough, most of his training throughout his life HAS been during night time (outdoors), since he was a winter pup.

Could he be scared of the dark?

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'll try to come back and post my results, and would appreciate any additional tips to get Walnut's behaviour and training back to where it was 2-3 months ago. I'm going to try to keep him on leash as much as possible, as he's lost my trust with his lack of recall. Until we can get his recall back to 100%, we'll keep him on leash around other dogs. We probably should anyway, as he's still not neutered.

Thanks again
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:43 AM
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NIGHT TIME
- When it's night time, he loses focus very quickly
- He seems to "scan" A LOT
- He's constantly turning his head to look back on night walks (no pulling or stopping, just looks back a lot)
- When he sits by my right side, his ear perk up and eyes seem to focus on the smallest moving objects (night time) and he hardly looks up at me.
- Last night, I had him in a long down position, but his focus was completely on HVAC system noise on a nearby building. I could not get his focus until the noise stopped.
- When he seems people moving in the dark, across the street, he seems to focus too much on them.
____________________________________-

At some point at night something spooked him. It could have been anything. It could have been so small that it wasn't even noticed by you. A gust of wind moved something across a yard, a screen door closing just a little louder than normal, someone yelling in the distance, it could have been anything.

At night sounds travel farther. He hears, sees, and registers scents way before you are even aware of them.
Out of your info above sounds and movement at night are making him uneasy. When out and about at night if you see/recognize something that is causing him that little bit of worry back up a step or two or three and play a game of look at that.
You can even practice it a little in the day time so he learns the game.
Make sure you are at a distance that he isn't really stressed. When he looks at an object, or person say yes and reward. The more you do this the less time he will look at the scary thing and the more he will look to you. Again you build on his successes as he gains confidence and looks at you you can make the game a little harder by shortening the distance by a step or so at a time. In the beginning of the game you are not rewarding the focus on you but for being brave and looking at the scary object. It is the opposite of focusing on you but in the end you get great focus on you when he decides each individual object isn't that big of a deal.

"would appreciate any additional tips to get Walnut's behaviour and training back to where it was 2-3 months ago"

Walnut is a young dog. What seems to happen is WE slack off on our expectations of the criteria we want. Over a very short time they pick up on that and run with it. Part of the reason we slack off is because we know they got it. We become a little complacent and lazy. Dogs under two really need a lot of maintance training with the skills they know. We don't want to be nags but we still need to reward for lots of the good behaviors. Usually if you have had a dog through it's puppyhood after the age of two they still need maintanence training but not as much but we still need to not slack off on our expectations.
We have to have good consistent habits and expect the same from them.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solinvictus View Post
NIGHT TIME
- When it's night time, he loses focus very quickly
- He seems to "scan" A LOT
- He's constantly turning his head to look back on night walks (no pulling or stopping, just looks back a lot)
- When he sits by my right side, his ear perk up and eyes seem to focus on the smallest moving objects (night time) and he hardly looks up at me.
- Last night, I had him in a long down position, but his focus was completely on HVAC system noise on a nearby building. I could not get his focus until the noise stopped.
- When he seems people moving in the dark, across the street, he seems to focus too much on them.
____________________________________-

At some point at night something spooked him. It could have been anything. It could have been so small that it wasn't even noticed by you. A gust of wind moved something across a yard, a screen door closing just a little louder than normal, someone yelling in the distance, it could have been anything.

At night sounds travel farther. He hears, sees, and registers scents way before you are even aware of them.
Out of your info above sounds and movement at night are making him uneasy. When out and about at night if you see/recognize something that is causing him that little bit of worry back up a step or two or three and play a game of look at that.
You can even practice it a little in the day time so he learns the game.
Make sure you are at a distance that he isn't really stressed. When he looks at an object, or person say yes and reward. The more you do this the less time he will look at the scary thing and the more he will look to you. Again you build on his successes as he gains confidence and looks at you you can make the game a little harder by shortening the distance by a step or so at a time. In the beginning of the game you are not rewarding the focus on you but for being brave and looking at the scary object. It is the opposite of focusing on you but in the end you get great focus on you when he decides each individual object isn't that big of a deal.

"would appreciate any additional tips to get Walnut's behaviour and training back to where it was 2-3 months ago"

Walnut is a young dog. What seems to happen is WE slack off on our expectations of the criteria we want. Over a very short time they pick up on that and run with it. Part of the reason we slack off is because we know they got it. We become a little complacent and lazy. Dogs under two really need a lot of maintance training with the skills they know. We don't want to be nags but we still need to reward for lots of the good behaviors. Usually if you have had a dog through it's puppyhood after the age of two they still need maintanence training but not as much but we still need to not slack off on our expectations.
We have to have good consistent habits and expect the same from them.
This is great. Thank you once again for the information.
I'll try rewarding him for focusing on things that make him uneasy, to hopefully, make him feel comfortable eventually.

I wasn't aware of how different things are to him at night! Poor guy. I just thought he'd rather watch an old lady cross the road than to perform a command when I ask him to.

"..we still need to not slack off.."
I'll admit. We did slack a tiny bit. But to him, it's probably A LOT more slack than it is for us.

Thanks solinvictus!
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:57 PM
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Just wanted to add: Dogs can go through a 'fear' period between 8 -14 months. Do your best to make 'scarey' stuff less scarey.
Remember to reward that 'offered attention; (when Walnut looks to you/makes eye contact, without you asking) with praise, always, and a treat occassionally. It is a valuable skill for your dog to have and you wouldn't want it to fade away.
Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with Walnut but be careful not to 'over do' it - when training/practicing a skill, always try to end the session on a high note,(success) - quit before he quits. You mentioned he was doing so well on recall, but failed at the 13th attempt, not his fault, he had had enough. Sniffing is a calming signal, it is a dog's way of saying he is stressed, and needs to take a break, or do something else. You have a young dog, 'push' a little, but keep it fun and rewarding for you both.
You sound very dedicated to Walnut, keep it up! Every dog should be so lucky!
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Charliethree View Post
Just wanted to add: Dogs can go through a 'fear' period between 8 -14 months. Do your best to make 'scarey' stuff less scarey.
Remember to reward that 'offered attention; (when Walnut looks to you/makes eye contact, without you asking) with praise, always, and a treat occassionally. It is a valuable skill for your dog to have and you wouldn't want it to fade away.
Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with Walnut but be careful not to 'over do' it - when training/practicing a skill, always try to end the session on a high note,(success) - quit before he quits. You mentioned he was doing so well on recall, but failed at the 13th attempt, not his fault, he had had enough. Sniffing is a calming signal, it is a dog's way of saying he is stressed, and needs to take a break, or do something else. You have a young dog, 'push' a little, but keep it fun and rewarding for you both.
You sound very dedicated to Walnut, keep it up! Every dog should be so lucky!
Thanks Charliethree.
I did read about the fear period, but I thought it was between 8-10 months. I just did a quick search on the GRF and yes, you're right, it's actually 8-14mths. That could be a possibility too.

We're really dedicated to helping Walnut. He's honestly the funniest, smartest, most emotional dog we've ever met. This is also our first pet ever, and we appreciate how easy he's made it for us.

Here is an update, and a question:
- The biggest problem was that we were getting him overly excited. We would get home, and play right away, pet, etc. He'd get crazy excited and would remain excited for a good 30 minutes before calming down.

- People in our condo, friends, and family love him. And he loves them. We always allowed people to pet him freely, and again, he would get SOOO excited he won't know what to do. He usually ends up biting his leash from excitement (if no toys are around).

So...
- Starting 2 days ago, we completely ignore him when we get home. The first day we tried this, he was REALLY confused. He was going crazy, and would try to go between our legs and whatnot to play. The second day was better. We go home, ignored him, he went nuts for about 2 minutes and immediately calmed down. Once calm, we slowly approached him, and just said hi (no touch).

- We had a family event last night, with a bunch of people he loves and people who love him, and always play with him. My parents LOVE getting him excited and playing. Anyway. we gave everyone a heads up noticed to ignore him completely. Not even eye contacts. JACKPOT! What a difference. He was excited at first, but calmed down VERY quickly. He just laid down 80% of the time and looked (and still looks) pretty upset.

- Took him for a walk before work, and thought I was going to have to deal with a super hyper dog. Surprisingly, he was extremely calm the entire time.

Question
I am still having trouble with getting his attention. This morning was super foggy, and you could only make out silhouettes of people. He walked very nicely, and would look up at me occasionally, but anytime there was a silhouette of someone walking, I couldn't regain his focus. I asked him to sit (he did, very calmly, to my right), and stayed in sit position the entire time the person walked by.

I clicked and tried to treat (he didn't accept, so I pet and said good boy), and continued walking. Every time someone walked by or even across the street though, we had to stop. If we didn't stop, he would still walke calmly beside me, but his full focus on the person walking.

He accepted treats once his mind "Reset" and person disappeared.

So my question is, do this go back to the whole fear thing? Or is he waiting for an opportunity for me to say "Hello" the stranger so he can get a bunch of attention? We normally cannot have him sit nicely while we talk to a stranger.

Finally, what would be my best approach to this? Do I:
- ignore it and keep walking until distraction goes away?
- give him a soft tug to remind him to look straight?
- stop, let him observe, and say "good boy"?
- other ideas?


We also decided to come up with a brand new work for "come". In our trainers guides, it said that if he doesn't come when called, then he knows that he has a choice with that command. When that happens, it's time for a new word.

I also successfully for 12 seconds of eye contact last night, outdoors, with leaves blowing, fog, and cars.

We're making progress! I think the biggest thing is to refrain ourselves from letting him get too excited. I'm also going to ask everyone in our condo (nicely) not to pet him if he gets too excited. This will be hard to do, as some rude people think it's okay to just approach and touch.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:20 AM
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First, no more off leash time. He needs a long line attached to him. If he doesn't come, reel him in. He can not learn that coming/listening is optional.

You need more distraction training. Get to puppy class. Training at home is different than outside or at the park. You need to gradually increase the temptation and distractions. Refrain from feeding him until its training time and use kibble for treats. If you're at a high distraction area, use SUPER high value food like cheese, meat, etc.


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Old 11-21-2012, 10:46 AM
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Could be a combination of both - a little apprehension and anticipating a 'meeting', may be plain curiousity. I would work at getting his attention you before he has the chance to 'lock on' to the person. When you see the person in the distance, chat him up, start feeding those treats, and try to keep him moving and his attention on you. Would also suggest considering trying a variety of new treats, the 'value' of a food reward increases when it is a 'rare' and new food item. If he works well for cheese on recall, that is great, but cheese may not be high enough value when working with distractions, ignoring distractions is super tough for a dog. Keep super high value treats for training the tough stuff.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charliethree View Post
Could be a combination of both - a little apprehension and anticipating a 'meeting', may be plain curiousity. I would work at getting his attention you before he has the chance to 'lock on' to the person. When you see the person in the distance, chat him up, start feeding those treats, and try to keep him moving and his attention on you. Would also suggest considering trying a variety of new treats, the 'value' of a food reward increases when it is a 'rare' and new food item. If he works well for cheese on recall, that is great, but cheese may not be high enough value when working with distractions, ignoring distractions is super tough for a dog. Keep super high value treats for training the tough stuff.
I've been using kibble when training inside, and cheese outside. I've tried boiled chicken, but he doesn't seem to get too excited for boiled chicken.

Is cooked beef okay for them? I'm thinking of trying cooked steak to see how he reacts to it.

Also, any thought on this technique? I'm thinking it may help with our problem:

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