Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Punishment In Training

7K views 75 replies 24 participants last post by  Rob's GRs 
#1 · (Edited)
  • Like
Reactions: Hina
#4 ·
The sad thing is that the definitions of brutality get muddied when you have people who take a concept and stretch it to apply to all corrections or use of e-collars, prongs, etc.

People know that using broom handles, kicking, etc... will mess up a dog.

But there are people who basically take that concept and interpret it to mean that all corrections and use of corrective devices will mess up a dog.

Which is wrong and why there is so much debate on these topics and divisiveness. :(

I was just chatting with a coworker here about something she experienced with her neighbor who is selling her house and bringing her two dogs over to hang out in Sally's backyard while the house is being looked at. One of the dogs grabbed a table cloth off the outdoor table and yanked it off. It's little things like that where the owner watches the dog do stuff like that and does literally nothing besides telling the dog in a high pitched voice that they shouldn't do that. It's very much the same kind of behavior that some moms exhibit with their children who are monsters in public. Good example of that was my sister was standing in line behind a woman with a 4 year old. The child was old enough to have a very set idea of what is not allowed and respect of other adults. That is how I was raised and how many people who are successful parents raise their children. This child was having a tantrum because his mom wasn't buying him something and threw a toy right at my sister's face. It hit her in the face - and hurt. The mom was embarrassed, but there was no uproar that should have been there over a child doing something so terrible. The mom again did the high pitched "oh you shouldn't have done that" and she was the one apologizing to my sister who was still in a state of shock.
 
#3 ·
There are some very obvious things here that you would hope no one ever, EVER uses such as kicking or hitting. I do think that you have to have some negative feedback for a dog (calm down, I don't mean hurting them whatsoever), but I think a firm no (no shouted just said in a command voice) is important in teaching a dog, especially about things that are dangerous for him/her. We'd all love to be able to use 100% positive training, but dogs, like children, need to learn for their own good. A undisciplined child turns into a horrible adult and an undisciplined dog turns into a danger to himself or others. Just my two cents worth!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Claudia M
#5 ·
Sigh....there are people who should never have kids or dogs.. I never try to put anyone else's methods down or try to make them see it my way. My dogs love to work for me and show it.. My children are decent,kind and respectful boys.. so I am sticking with my way.. Why can't we just all get along without having these horrible examples being brought up?? Just my two cents.. have a wonderful day. I am going to play with the dogs now!
 
#7 ·
I think training collars and corrections are effective if you're doing it properly. I just mentioned in one of my other topics that my GSD chased cars when I walked him, ands after he nearly dragged us into a bus I used a prong collar and leash corrections on him, and he still starts to lunge sometimes but I correct him and he stops.
 
#9 ·
It's a false equivalency to suggest that a lack of punishment is the same thing as a lack of discipline. When somebody's dog is making a mess or jumping all over someone and the owner is ignoring it or ineffectively wringing their hands, that is not positive training—it's simply not training at all. Reducing or eliminating punishment in your training is not the same thing as being permissive with bad behavior, not by a long shot.

If people would, perhaps, read the first article all the way through rather than reacting to their assumptions about what it probably says, they might note that it talks about the way punishment can create displaced aggression if you're not careful. That's very helpful to know if you plan to use punishment. It also ranks some common "corrections" by their likelihood in creating aggressive responses in subject dogs. It's interesting that a water spray or a forced release of an item are relatively high on that list, while a prong correction is fairly low

The second article I don't particularly like because it draws a number of unsupported conclusions from some research that was more interesting to me in its original form. I found the original paper far more persuasive than the blog entry.
 
#10 ·
A lack of punishment in training does not mean a lack of rules and boundaries. In addition we can't really know how a dog or a child is reared by one brief snapshot of behavior. Positive does not mean permissive and punishment does not mean no-nonsense.
 
#11 · (Edited)
A lack of punishment in training does not mean a lack of rules and boundaries. In addition we can't really know how a dog or a child is reared by one brief snapshot of behavior. Positive does not mean permissive and punishment does not mean no-nonsense.
But Carolyn - both are often misinterpreted by people. You have people who are afraid to correct their children or afraid to correct their dogs - because they don't want to look bad at that exact moment, or they attended classes where the only message was using treats and toys to appease and lure.

Or something to that effect. :uhoh:

I definitely know some good trainers who minimize the corrections they use - but they will most definitely smack down on a dog who is acting up. I don't know if you were at the fun match I was a few months ago, but somebody's dog was acting up in the ring and Kathy went in there and gave that dog a fear of God. And good trainers know when you correct, when you REALLY correct, and when you encourage and reward.

I'm not going to respond any further - but I think people who are interested in dog training should definitely join the training thread and report their progress with their dogs every week. It's fun - keeps you on tracks too. ;)
 
#12 ·
I always trained my own dogs and never felt the need for punishment type training. They all turned out beautifully.
Ollie's breeder is a trainer, who requested, for bonding purposes, 12 classes for all puppy parents as per contract.

So, figured, ok. We started when Ollie was 4 months. Love it. Thought I knew everything about training dogs, but the positive food based reward methods are a little different. We are learning new things, the bonding aspect is great, plus Ollie is thriving on the work.

After 13 classes, wanted to try a highly recommended school right around the corner, rather than drive an hour+ each way, as my time constraints are killing me. Plus his regular trainer was not teaching session 3.

So, we signed up and lasted 2 classes at new school.
The owner and teacher both have walls of medals and trophys. But their teaching methods are far different. They use the leash corrections. They yell. The instructor screamed at her dog first class. I almost left then. She wanted to know if I was going to continue with easy harness or if I wouldn't find training my "rambunctious Golden boy" with prong collar. On and on it went, this instructor making us feel like Ollie was out of step because he was not cowering.

I only went back a second time because I am not a quitter.
The dogs were practicing , "Leave It. The trainer actually bonked hers on top of the head until she finally Left It. Altho Olliver was only 5.1/2 months old and the youngest in the class, he executed the Leave It perfectly. No yelling, no leash jerking, just the calm command, the prolonged eye contact followed by a YES and a nice tasty treat.

And lesson after lesson that day Olliver excelled far beyond his older classmates. I kept giving out the treats and the positive affirmations. I was so proud.
We went back to our old school the next week.

I cannot tell you the stark difference in the mood, the tone and just the energy level in those two classes. In the correction class, I saw Ollie nervous and strained and doing what he was told, but not his happy self. I saw a trainers dog cower. Not once ever in my life did a dog of mine cower.

In the other class, Ollie learns and has fun doing it. And he wants to learn more and more. He is like a little sponge.

If anyone ever says that you cannot teach a dog obedience with positive methods, they are wrong. My Ollie is proof.
 
#14 ·
In the other class, Ollie learns and has fun doing it. And he wants to learn more and more. He is like a little sponge.

If anyone ever says that you cannot teach a dog obedience with positive methods, they are wrong. My Ollie is proof.
I agree with this for my goldens too. It is fun to have a partner who gives 100 percent attention to a discovery/learning process.
 
#13 ·
I would tweek Brian's comment just a bit.

" ignoring it or ineffectively wringing their hands, that is not positive training—it's simply not training at all."

Setting no boundaries IS training. It trains the dog that anything goes...it can be as "dog" as it wants. When ever I asked why my horse, my dog or my children were "doing that" the reply was always: Because he can!
 
#15 ·
#16 ·
I'm glad this thread popped up again this morning, because I was teaching family dog class last night and watching some people handle their dogs. I'm always really, really curious to watch people handle because you can really see moments where things "click" for a dog, and you can also see moments where the handler is not getting results. I always try to observe to figure out what the handler is doing that's either producing success or confusion.

One major theme I've been noticing is how minor punishments build up on young, confused dogs. There are some people who have learned, somewhere, to pull up on the leash and say "no" when their dog is doing something they don't like. I say "somewhere" because nobody at our center teaches people to do that. The dogs who receive these corrections seem to consistently (not always, but frequently) shut down and stop offering new behaviors as easily. They don't readily follow lures, or readily learn things that involve spontaneous behavior (like palm targeting). They seem to have a tendency to retreat back to safe behaviors that have worked before (like sitting), and their owners start to get really frustrated.

The owners who seem to move more quickly with new behaviors are those who redirect their dogs when they're doing something undesired or carefully non-reward them for an undesired and then reward the desired behavior. If your GSD is a major puller who fixates on other dogs and wants to bark during class, pulling up on his leash and saying "no" often just confuses and energizes him, even if it interrupts the barking. However, playing attention games where he gets rewarded for eye contact makes him easier and easier to interrupt positively. We have one lady who has really bought into the reward-based model, and her young, intense GSD has made amazing progress in four weeks of classes. Instead of staring, pulling, and play-barking like he did at the beginning, he now looks at her when he's confused or energized, since she's been really good about rewarding that. Once she has eye contact, she has the opportunity to continue that connection and keep working. He's learning very quickly not to be a giant pain-in-the-butt in public.

The lady who collar pops her eskie, even though none of us have ever taught us to do that and several of us have suggested that she stop it, has a dog who still stares and barks, and if she keeps saying "no" and popping, the dog eventually sits, but continues to stare and then gets up and barks again after a minute. The dog almost never looks back at her or offers to work for her, so it's hard to help her because she won't reward the eye contact she does get, and she's really in this habit of pulling up on the leash and saying "no" which means she's not redirecting or finding something to reward. She doesn't pop hard or hurt the dog (or we'd tell her to quit it or leave class) but even so, the dog seems to retreat to a safer learned behavior when given repeated minor corrections, rather than opening up opportunities to learn new behaviors. The connection is not getting built.

This isn't a statement against all punishment ever in any kind of training, but it's an observation that I've been building over several months about how to build strong attention and polite public behaviors. Building and extending attention, connection, and eye-contact with praise, treats, and toys seems to work vastly better than trying to correct individual undesired behaviors with a stern "no" and a collar pop. Instead of trying to teach "barking=bad," we're teaching "working with me=good."

And a really telling thing is when one of the experienced instructors borrows a dog to demonstrate something. A dog who was previously acting confused and partially shut down will often come to life for an experienced handler. The eskie might pull and bark when her owner holds the leash, but when the instructor borrows her for a demo, she turns prancy and gives some eye contact and connection to the handler instead of running out to the end of the leash and staring at other dogs. It really shows you that many of these dogs that seem "dumb" or "stubborn" (as I've heard people call their dogs on multiple occasions) are often just confused and trying to avoid more corrections.
 
#52 ·
I'm glad this thread popped up again this morning, because I was teaching family dog class last night and watching some people handle their dogs. I'm always really, really curious to watch people handle because you can really see moments where things "click" for a dog, and you can also see moments where the handler is not getting results. I always try to observe to figure out what the handler is doing that's either producing success or confusion.
When you watch 100s of people manage puppies and teenage dogs week in and week out, you really feel the joy the teams experience when the lightbulb on/epiphany moments happen. Those never involve punishment. I so agree with TippyKayak that just from old culture of aversive training's heyday people feel they should yank on the leash or give a steady pull on the leash and overly manhandle dogs, which results in gradations of confusion on the dogs' parts and the humans' parts. People seem so thrilled to learn a system of training that has efficacy, that works, and doesnt involve intimidating or hurting the dogs.
 
#18 ·
Just as a side comment to this thread. One of the very real risks that I believe correction based trainers run is correcting a dog when the dog may not be feeling 100% - or is simply confused.

As a recent personal example, my Faelan started acting ‘off’ and was not his usual speedy, happy self. I took him in for TBD panels and my loving boy was actually avoiding the techs! Anaplasmosis!! A cycle or treatment and he is back to his normal, happy self.

Brady, my 1 year old, reacted weirdly at a class a few weeks ago. He actually arced away from the instructor when we were practicing entering into the Rally Ring. There was no convincing him that the bogey man was not hiding within her – and he has been fine with her since we started. Normally he does not even appear to notice other dogs or people since he is ‘the chosen one’ for that class. So off we go to the vets – again a diagnosis of anaplasmosis!! He is ½ way through his treatment and has snapped back to his usual self.

These are but 2 examples of when a physical or verbal correction could have led to serious problems – my dogs may have lost trust and certainly would not have understood why I was correcting them when they just felt sick. I would like to mention there were no fevers, no limping and in Faelan’s case he was a little slower eating while in Brady’s case he ate with his usual gusto. No indications of illness other than a slight reluctance to work or be touched by people not loved.
 
#20 ·
Just as a side comment to this thread. One of the very real risks that I believe correction based trainers run is correcting a dog when the dog may not be feeling 100% - or is simply confused.

As a recent personal example, my Faelan started acting ‘off’ and was not his usual speedy, happy self. I took him in for TBD panels and my loving boy was actually avoiding the techs! Anaplasmosis!! A cycle or treatment and he is back to his normal, happy self.

Brady, my 1 year old, reacted weirdly at a class a few weeks ago. He actually arced away from the instructor when we were practicing entering into the Rally Ring. There was no convincing him that the bogey man was not hiding within her – and he has been fine with her since we started. Normally he does not even appear to notice other dogs or people since he is ‘the chosen one’ for that class. So off we go to the vets – again a diagnosis of anaplasmosis!! He is ½ way through his treatment and has snapped back to his usual self.

These are but 2 examples of when a physical or verbal correction could have led to serious problems – my dogs may have lost trust and certainly would not have understood why I was correcting them when they just felt sick. I would like to mention there were no fevers, no limping and in Faelan’s case he was a little slower eating while in Brady’s case he ate with his usual gusto. No indications of illness other than a slight reluctance to work or be touched by people not loved.
Oh boy, hope your pups are on the mend :)
 
#19 ·
Love your observations TippyK.
I never did formal obedience classes with any of my pups before I had Olliver, so the rewards based training is new to me. But my own home training methods previous to Ollie were always based on praise, respect and the pleasure of bonding vs negative corrections.
Before he turned maybe a year, I would only need to look at Homer the wrong way and he would know he did wrong.
I think at the bottom of all training is the knowledge that dogs want to please their owner. They want to do good. It is not the opposite in my mind.

I kinda liken dog training with raising my kids. My late husbands' parents beat the tar out of him all his formative years, Spare the Rod Spoil The Child kinda deal. He may have been obedient to them, but inwardly he was a mess and afraid.
My folks were Anything Goes kinda people. There were no rules or boundaries other than a nightly curfew. Needless to say I had some issues as an adult as well related to this lackadaisical upbringing.

So, as a parent I opted for the middle road. Children need to learn respect, empathy and kindness but beating these ideas into them never occurred to me. They learned to love me and wanted to please me and make me proud of them, so we all won.

Lol. Of course, during my female middle child's teen years, if they had made a human shock collar...... (Only kidding) ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Titan1
#21 ·
I have trained more horses than dogs. An animal 'learns' by guessing at the answer to the 'question'. The most important facet of teaching is figuring HOW our dog or horse learns; how it wants to be taught.

I had one horse who would try his heart out but invariably guessed wrong sometimes. He wasn't being "bad" or "stubborn" or "stupid", he simply guessed wrong. He knew he was trying very hard and would get impatient with me if I didn't stay patient with him and give him a chance to guess at a different answer. When he guessed "right" I would stop our work and go nuts over him. His reward was a sugar cube and scritches between his ears...his favorite place. In time, he understood that my questions meant there were answers and that he needed to answer me. He got better at guessing, I got better at asking him in a way that made him feel safe and confident.

Our dogs are guessing too. They have no idea that they have to behave in a certain, undog -like manner. We are teaching them OUR way of doing things and it's pretty foreign to them. We are teaching them OUR language. Our rules.

I hate to see punishment for a wrong guess. We just start over, do it again. When the guess results in the answer we're looking for we reinforce that...YES, YOU GUESSED RIGHT. As they learn and become confident as to what "sit" "come" "touch" means, they no longer have to guess. Because they are confident. They know the answer!

To me training is asking the question and then rewarding the right answer. We dismiss all the wrong answers by simply starting over.
 
#22 ·
I have trained more horses than dogs. An animal 'learns' by guessing at the answer to the 'question'. The most important facet of teaching is figuring HOW our dog or horse learns; how it wants to be taught.

I had one horse who would try his heart out but invariably guessed wrong sometimes. He wasn't being "bad" or "stubborn" or "stupid", he simply guessed wrong. He knew he was trying very hard and would get impatient with me if I didn't stay patient with him and give him a chance to guess at a different answer. When he guessed "right" I would stop our work and go nuts over him. His reward was a sugar cube and scritches between his ears...his favorite place. In time, he understood that my questions meant there were answers and that he needed to answer me. He got better at guessing, I got better at asking him in a way that made him feel safe and confident.

Our dogs are guessing too. They have no idea that they have to behave in a certain, undog -like manner. We are teaching them OUR way of doing things and it's pretty foreign to them. We are teaching them OUR language. Our rules.

I hate to see punishment for a wrong guess. We just start over, do it again. When the guess results in the answer we're looking for we reinforce that...YES, YOU GUESSED RIGHT. As they learn and become confident as to what "sit" "come" "touch" means, they no longer have to guess. Because they are confident. They know the answer!

To me training is asking the question and then rewarding the right answer. We dismiss all the wrong answers by simply starting over.[/QUOTE]

That's a great line!
Olliver's only class faux pas involved recall and a tennis ball distraction.
Being the ultimate ball hound lately, he could not get past the idea that he had to come to mom, across the large space, in between two people throwing a tennis ball over his head.
Lol. My poor 7 month old.
It took the third try for him to understand those hot dogs were staying in my pocket until he ignored Wilson.
Thereafter he did 5 perfect recalls.
He finally understood the question "Ollie can you please, please, please leave the sacred ball alone for 5 seconds and come to your mama?"
And then he answered correctly :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: MaureenM
#23 ·
Okay.... for the sake of common sense and calm and level thinking.... :)

Corrective methods like saying "No" and leash corrections do not cause dogs to shut down.

The OWNERS using the corrective methods cause the dogs to shut down.

Generally the problem is you have people who are poorly taught using methods or tools such as those. Or the people themselves are going on automatic and not reading their dogs or communicating with their dogs.

What Tippy described was nagging - and that is a huge issue with a lot of trainers who may be trying to train a dog without knowing the CORRECT way to train them, and or they may be overwhelmed or tired in the class.

I can understand how that happens because I had a funny kind of class yesterday with somebody who is all over the place in the way that she teaches class and she makes ME flustered. LOL. As I lost interest in the class as taught by her, the communication with my dog while heeling with him slacked as well. I shut down and then Bertie shut down. Basically.

Had nothing to do with the training methods I use or collars I put on my dogs or whatnot. Had more to do with what was actually going on that specific time.

And majority of the time when I see dogs not really working well with their owners - it's because the owners themselves have shut down. They are not as happy out there, their timing is slow, they may be reactive instead of proactive, they may forget to reward and praise, all kinds of things.

It is simplistic and purely political trying to put the finger on a method causing the dogs to shut down as opposed to how the method was delivered.
 
#25 ·
So what is the purpose of 'automatic corrections'? They certainly nag and are by definition unfair since the dog is not given the option to avoid a correction. He is corrected right of wrong.

Same goes for a 'motivational' pop ?

I grew up using the above methods and never did think they were fair or motivating... but they were the way dogs were trained.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ljilly28
#26 ·
I think it somewhat depends on the dog what exactly you do in training. I watched this week (I mentioned in it another forum) as a two year old male golden left his owner and tore around and around the agility field. He ignored everyone. When the trainer finally got a hold on him, she dragged him into a come position over and over. He ignored her and looked everywhere but at her for the first four times of her yanking him toward her. And I mean she was in his face. Finally, he looked up at her and she stopped.

Now Maddie would have smartened up the first time she did that. Amber would have just rolled over and died at being yelled at like that. This dog barely deigned to notice.

And, yep, the next time he took off again. I've seen his owner drop treats over and over directly into his mouth with him on a beautiful 'come.' He clearly doesn't give a fig.

I'm not sure what I would do with this pup. He's sweet as he can be, but a blockhead. :bowl:
 
#29 ·
Gwen, some ARE blockheads and there's no hope. Not all dogs can do all things. Many owners make the mistake of deciding what THEY want to do and assume the dog will just do it. Kind of like a Nike thing. For this dog, if he's mature and otherwise obedient, my guess would be that agility is just too exciting for him. Off leash and excited will result in a happy time until he gets caught. He is probably better suited to something less exciting that requires much more focus from him. Just my guess.

I think it somewhat depends on the dog what exactly you do in training. I watched this week (I mentioned in it another forum) as a two year old male golden left his owner and tore around and around the agility field. He ignored everyone. When the trainer finally got a hold on him, she dragged him into a come position over and over. He ignored her and looked everywhere but at her for the first four times of her yanking him toward her. And I mean she was in his face. Finally, he looked up at her and she stopped.

Now Maddie would have smartened up the first time she did that. Amber would have just rolled over and died at being yelled at like that. This dog barely deigned to notice.

And, yep, the next time he took off again. I've seen his owner drop treats over and over directly into his mouth with him on a beautiful 'come.' He clearly doesn't give a fig.

I'm not sure what I would do with this pup. He's sweet as he can be, but a blockhead. :bowl:
 
#28 ·
I read the second thing about shock collars. I won't use them (though I did let them use it on Maddie for rattlesnake aversion).

I remember reading on a hunting dog forum that I stumbled upon, a man writing that he was having trouble training his "GOLDEN" to go out further in the water. He had a shock collar on the dog and the dog was swimming in circles.

I was so angry when I read it I could have spit.
 
#32 ·
I read the second thing about shock collars. I won't use them (though I did let them use it on Maddie for rattlesnake aversion).

I remember reading on a hunting dog forum that I stumbled upon, a man writing that he was having trouble training his "GOLDEN" to go out further in the water. He had a shock collar on the dog and the dog was swimming in circles.

I was so angry when I read it I could have spit.

This goes back to what Megora was saying in her post bleow:

And majority of the time when I see dogs not really working well with their owners - it's because the owners themselves have shut down. They are not as happy out there, their timing is slow, they may be reactive instead of proactive, they may forget to reward and praise, all kinds of things.

It is simplistic and purely political trying to put the finger on a method causing the dogs to shut down as opposed to how the method was delivered.
 
#30 ·
#31 ·
<,To me training is asking the question and then rewarding the right answer. We dismiss all the wrong answers by simply starting over.>>

This works great in some instances. It is terrible timing and leads to much frustration on a lot of other instances.

GROUP HUG!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: boomers_dawn
#34 ·
As someone who is not a trainer by any sense of the word

I guess I've always thought of a leash pop or a "ehh ehh" as a way of getting the dogs attention back on the task at hand.
I never ever correct a dog while teaching a new task, but will correct them for not doing something they know to do. I see it as saying "nope, try again"

Guinness for example is very "alert" on walks. He knows how to heel very well, but on most of our walks it is for enjoyment so I don't force a heel. If he sees a cat across the street he goes to complete tunnel vision on that cat. He no longer even knows I exist. That is when I would give a leash pop (he has a martingale collar on) and say "ehh ehh". Then when I get the slightest bit of recognition from him, I can get him to refocus on me and get a watch me from him to get past the distraction.
 
#37 ·
I guess a stay would be the best example. You say sit. Once the sit happens, you say stay. I like to end the stay quickly at first. If the dog moves before I end it, I just start over.

If I'm heeling and the dog moves out of position, I just put him back and continue on.

The really neat thing about it is that the dog (or horse) does the behavior because it WANTS to, not because it gets criticized for something else or punished. I like to single out one behavior (at first) and not distract from teaching it by using a lot of words or other instructions. Just sit/stay. Then I release with "okay" and we jump for joy. I'm pretty quiet when I'm training. Just one or two words here and there. Once I release, then we jabber to each other and ruffle fur.
 
#40 ·
The horses..and dogs...know they've guessed wrong because there's no reward.

There has to be a give and take so it's not just asking asking asking. I don't always get the right answer the first day. Sometimes it takes a while; sometimes it takes strength that the horse has to build up before it can do what I'm asking; sometimes it guesses in the right direct. Even the slightest inclination to answer correctly gets the reward.

And I laugh! Animals seem to understand that laughing is good; that people are happy. That's how they know they've pleased us. We laugh and praise.
 
#45 ·
I've found that when I start to become frustrated, it's time to quit. It means I haven't figured out how to make myself clear. My philosophy in riding is that it's never the horse's fault. Whatever he's doing or not doing is because of what I am doing or not doing.

It's the same with dogs, I think. Some of them require a lot of work, a lot of repetition, a lot of focus. Penny got a lot of things really quickly. Pulling was something she out grew as she aged; it wasn't something I trained out of her. Was she capable of walking nicely? Of course. Did I do the work to train to do it? No. It didn't matter enough to me so I let that slide. I think a lot of failed training is because the handler settles for what is offered; a compromise. Penny's was that she wouldn't pull really hard but she wasn't going to heel either. So we agreed on that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top