Toby is a defiant turd! - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Thanks: 22
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Exclamation Toby is a defiant turd!

So we are at the 15 1/2 week mark and Toby has been quite the turd lately in many ways. I am assuming this is maybe an age related phase, but needing some advice on how to handle it, because I feel like what I'm doing must not be working well, as he keeps being a turd.

He's getting better about his biting, but that's certainly not eliminated yet. The worst behaviors include pulling super hard on the leash AND when he simply doesn't feel like moving (like on a walk or when it's time to come inside) or coming when he's been called, he just lays down and looks at me with those "make me do it" eyes. Also, jumping up on us (knocking the younger kids down, of course), jumping on the furniture (which he's never been allowed on) and counter surfing. It's becoming difficult to find places to keep things out of his reach. Evenings are the worst time of day for his bad behavior. I'm dreading tonight because he'll be crated for several hours because my oldest daughter has a track marathon...I mean meet. He's going to be a nightmare when we get home. :/

In re: to stubbornness: There have been times that I have tried to pick him up to standing and/or lure him with chicken or cheese or something high value, but he's getting so big that's it's becoming difficult (a solid 35 pounds). He plays "rubber baby" like a toddler who doesn't want to be picked up and rolls over making it hard to get a handle on him at all. I've tried keeping my voice in a higher range when calling him (so as not to communicate "you're in trouble!"). I've tried getting his attention with treats and when he doesn't feel like it, he just doesn't listen.

In re: to the jumping/counter surfing: We usually try to redirect him into a sit or a down command. This works quite a bit, but I'm wondering how you all have trained yours to not do the behavior at all...or does it just take a long time? Maybe my expectations are just too high...

We start obedience classes on the 18th for 8 weeks, but I'm honestly nervous that he's going to be lunging toward everyone, jumping and yanking my arms off and peeing all over the place (submissive urination is the worst). When we are in training mode, he does AMAZINGLY well. Very intelligent, learns quickly. Just lately, he is so, so naughty, especially in the evenings. I just can't seem to wear him out enough! :/

Advice? Encouragement? Will it ever get better? Does anyone actually ENJOY having a puppy? This has been the most trying 8 weeks of my life and I am completely exhausted, working my tail off trying to shape him into the dog of our dreams...but it's becoming more of a nightmare at times and I just feel like I'm not doing a good job at all.
foleyfam is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to foleyfam For This Useful Post:
Tosh's Legacy (04-13-2017)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 03:57 PM
Max's Mom
 
laprincessa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 14,155
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Thanks: 7,883
Thanked 6,451 Times in 3,591 Posts
I have an almost 10 year old, and yeah, I miss those puppy days. When he CAN'T do those things, you'll wish he could.

He's 15 weeks old? He's a baby and you're expecting way too much of him. Lower your expectations. He's still learning your language, figuring out what you want. Never assume he "knows he's not supposed to do that." He really doesn't.

Patience. In a few years, you'll wonder where the time went and wish there wasn't quite so much white in that sugar face.
laprincessa is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to laprincessa For This Useful Post:
foleyfam (04-17-2017), FosterGolden (04-15-2017), gold4me (04-13-2017), jnmarr (04-15-2017), Max's Dad (04-13-2017), murphy1 (04-14-2017), puddles everywhere (04-14-2017), Tosh's Legacy (04-13-2017)
post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 04:16 PM
Fly free, my sweetheart
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Thanks: 478
Thanked 980 Times in 548 Posts
Oh, I miss those days so much! The years go by so quickly, and before you know it, they are white faced seniors. I look back on the puppy antics and wish I could see them do it one more time.

He will be your perfect dog. It takes time with Goldens, but you won't be disappointed.
If he collapses on you during a walk, don't say a word. Just spin him around in the opposite direction you were going in and he'll get up. Then be on your way in the direction you were originally in. (Tosh was a Master at that trick. It was soooo embarrassing to have the neighbors laughing at us!)

Counter surfing? Obviously, keep food away from the edges. What worked for me was
to put a temptation on the edge while he was in there, pretend I was leaving the room
and watch from the doorway. The second he made a move toward it, I said a firm,
NO! and he quit. It takes a couple of times, but "no" works wonderfully. Consistency,
repeat, repeat, repeat ... like a child.

Tosh was our Little Devilman. Turd is close enough!
Tosh's Legacy is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Tosh's Legacy For This Useful Post:
foleyfam (04-17-2017), gold4me (04-13-2017), laprincessa (04-13-2017), Max's Dad (04-13-2017), puddles everywhere (04-14-2017), Wendy427 (04-13-2017)
 
post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 07:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,089
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Thanks: 434
Thanked 782 Times in 474 Posts
You mentioned you have a daughter... remember the terrible two's? You even said it, acts like a toddler. That's exactly what he is.

If he charges ahead on his walk just stand firm, when he turns around to see why you aren't moving tell him what a good boy he is and run the other way, a few feet anyway. If he lays down in protest just stand there and wait him out... he's having a toddler tantrum and they hate to be ignored. Move on when he is through. This is much easier at 35lbs, in just a few months he will be twice this size.

You need to be more interesting than everything around you but it's easier to start this training at home with less distractions. Maybe bring a squeaky toy or a rope toy, walking is boring... when he has a protest you could engage him in a quick game to get him moving.

So glad to hear you are signed up for obedience classes, this will help more than you know and acting like an over excited kid at the zoo is to be expected. It's the perfect place to have a case of the crazy. Can't learn anything if he is behaving perfectly :-)

Like the other two post said, enjoy this age... you will miss it later. Find your sense of humor, appreciate his excitement for all things "new" in his life and be assured it won't last. Good luck in class, can't wait for updates.
puddles everywhere is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to puddles everywhere For This Useful Post:
foleyfam (04-17-2017)
post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 08:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Cpc1972's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,958
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Thanks: 810
Thanked 2,792 Times in 1,942 Posts
If you keep up with telling him off he will eventually get the NO counter surfing thing. We thought for sure Chloe would be a counter surfer. She was terrible at that age. But we were consistant with off and she stopped. The only time she puts her paws on the counter now are when the kids come over and they sit on the counter. She needs to say hi to them. Lol. He is at the hardest age. Once they hit six months it usually starts to get so much better. Try a gentle leader to make walks easier while your working with him. Chloe did the same thing on walks. Just keep working they outgrow it.

<a href=http://s115.photobucket.com/user/CPC1972/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_24.jpg.html target=_blank><a href=http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n290/CPC1972/Mobile%20Uploads/image_24.jpg target=_blank>http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/image_24.jpg</a></a>Rest in peace sweet Jake.
Cpc1972 is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to Cpc1972 For This Useful Post:
foleyfam (04-17-2017)
post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 10:20 PM
Member
 
WI12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Thanks: 19
Thanked 60 Times in 40 Posts
I was just about to start a thread about "The Alpha Dog." That is what your dog probably was in the litter, and mine was for sure. The breeder confirmed it when I asked her. She said he was the biggest and knew he was in charge. Our Cooper is now 12 weeks and very smart but VERY stubborn. Everything he does is about control. He is constantly biting us and trying to hump my leg. When I take him for a walk he will either freeze in one spot and refuse to move, or fight to go in the opposite direction, or run. It's all about control. We start puppy school in a couple of days and I am hoping for some help with this. He is a sweet and beautiful dog, but he needs to know that we are in charge ... we are the pack leaders ... not him. My last Golden had issues with submissive peeing ... this guy will never have that issue, I'm quite sure. Actually, at 12 weeks he is completely potty trained. When I take him out he runs to the grass because he's been holding it and has to go. (Although submissive peeing happens even if a dog is trained.) He is very smart and should have no trouble learning. Unlike what others are saying, I long for the day when he is a grown up dog. I've done this a few times over my lifetime and puppies are cute to look at and cuddle, but I am longing for the day when he is grown and just a member of the family that I don't have to chase around. My arms and legs are full of teeth marks and my house is a mess. I love him to pieces but this puppy stage is a means to an end in my mind.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Cooper 4-2.JPG
Views:	78
Size:	114.2 KB
ID:	724953  
WI12345 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to WI12345 For This Useful Post:
foleyfam (04-17-2017)
post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:07 PM
Max's Mom
 
laprincessa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 14,155
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Thanks: 7,883
Thanked 6,451 Times in 3,591 Posts
All I can think is, "this poor puppy." It's not about control, he's a baby, he has no concept of control. He's biting you and humping your leg because that's how he expresses himself, he's a dog, he doesn't talk so he can't say, "hey, what do you want me to do? I'm so excited I can't stand still! I don't want to walk, I'm tired, I don't like this leash because I have no clue why this thing is around my neck keeping from going over there and isn't that the most fascinating scent SQUIRRELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Lighten up on him, he's a baby.
He doesn't know stubborn, would you say that about a human child? He's no different, he's a baby, he's not stubborn, he doesn't know what you want.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WI12345 View Post
I was just about to start a thread about "The Alpha Dog." That is what your dog probably was in the litter, and mine was for sure. The breeder confirmed it when I asked her. She said he was the biggest and knew he was in charge. Our Cooper is now 12 weeks and very smart but VERY stubborn. Everything he does is about control. He is constantly biting us and trying to hump my leg. When I take him for a walk he will either freeze in one spot and refuse to move, or fight to go in the opposite direction, or run. It's all about control. We start puppy school in a couple of days and I am hoping for some help with this. He is a sweet and beautiful dog, but he needs to know that we are in charge ... we are the pack leaders ... not him. My last Golden had issues with submissive peeing ... this guy will never have that issue, I'm quite sure. Actually, at 12 weeks he is completely potty trained. When I take him out he runs to the grass because he's been holding it and has to go. (Although submissive peeing happens even if a dog is trained.) He is very smart and should have no trouble learning. Unlike what others are saying, I long for the day when he is a grown up dog. I've done this a few times over my lifetime and puppies are cute to look at and cuddle, but I am longing for the day when he is grown and just a member of the family that I don't have to chase around. My arms and legs are full of teeth marks and my house is a mess. I love him to pieces but this puppy stage is a means to an end in my mind.
laprincessa is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to laprincessa For This Useful Post:
AshleyOrd (04-14-2017), FosterGolden (04-15-2017), puddles everywhere (04-14-2017), Sandy22 (04-14-2017), Sweet Girl (04-14-2017)
post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 08:13 AM
Member
 
WI12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Thanks: 19
Thanked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by laprincessa View Post
All I can think is, "this poor puppy." It's not about control, he's a baby, he has no concept of control. He's biting you and humping your leg because that's how he expresses himself, he's a dog, he doesn't talk so he can't say, "hey, what do you want me to do? I'm so excited I can't stand still! I don't want to walk, I'm tired, I don't like this leash because I have no clue why this thing is around my neck keeping from going over there and isn't that the most fascinating scent SQUIRRELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Lighten up on him, he's a baby.
He doesn't know stubborn, would you say that about a human child? He's no different, he's a baby, he's not stubborn, he doesn't know what you want.
Sorry but you are wrong. It has everything to do with control. I have had dogs all my life, all starting from puppies. Any trainer will tell you that you have to establish the pack order right from the start. Especially when you have an aggressive "Alpha dog." Some will tell you never to feed the puppy till after you have eaten ... never let the puppy out the door first ... etc. It's all about showing the dog that you are the one in control, not him. He is not a "poor puppy," and I'm sorry you feel that way. He gets tons of love, kisses and hugs, and lots of praise. We would never hit him or treat him badly. But teaching him the boundaries has to start right away. I weigh a little over 100 pounds. We no longer have a yard so I will be taking him for lots of walks and he has to learn how to walk on a leash without dragging me to the ground. He's already 22 pounds at 12 weeks and is going to be a big boy!!!

I take it you assume I have no experience with puppies but that is not the case. I have received nothing but compliments about the dogs I have had in my life and everyone always mentions how well behaved and mellow they are. You have to start early. It's obvious to me that this puppy is by far the smartest dog out of all the dogs I've had. He can already open doors with handles ... just one example. He already knows to go to the door when he has to go potty. He knew which house to walk back to after the first few times I walked him around the block, and all the houses here look pretty much the same. If you don't think a smart puppy knows how to be stubborn, you should just ask a professional.

BTW we start puppy school tomorrow. Looking forward to it. My husband did the training with with our last dog but he is traveling too much so I will be the one this time. This guy is going to be so easy to teach. I'm sure it will be very rewarding.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Cooper 3.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	372.2 KB
ID:	725033   Click image for larger version

Name:	Coop and me.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	49.7 KB
ID:	725041  
WI12345 is offline  
post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 08:20 AM
Member
 
WI12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Thanks: 19
Thanked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpc1972 View Post
If you keep up with telling him off he will eventually get the NO counter surfing thing. We thought for sure Chloe would be a counter surfer. She was terrible at that age. But we were consistant with off and she stopped. The only time she puts her paws on the counter now are when the kids come over and they sit on the counter. She needs to say hi to them. Lol. He is at the hardest age. Once they hit six months it usually starts to get so much better. Try a gentle leader to make walks easier while your working with him. Chloe did the same thing on walks. Just keep working they outgrow it.
I don't remember our last Golden (lost him at 12) ever counter surfing but this one at 12 weeks is a champion at it and always manages to grab something and run through the house with it. What I do remember about our dear sweet Murphy was that he would always put his paws up on the counter at the vet's office, the groomer, or the boarding kennel as if to say "Hello! Murphy's here." I never saw that as a problem because I was glad that he was happy to be there, and everyone there thought it was cute. I once took him to a new boarding kennel and when he did that someone working there pushed him down and said "Off." I never went back there again!
WI12345 is offline  
post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 08:57 AM
Member
 
WI12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Thanks: 19
Thanked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by laprincessa View Post
All I can think is, "this poor puppy." It's not about control, he's a baby, he has no concept of control. He's biting you and humping your leg because that's how he expresses himself, he's a dog, he doesn't talk so he can't say, "hey, what do you want me to do? I'm so excited I can't stand still! I don't want to walk, I'm tired, I don't like this leash because I have no clue why this thing is around my neck keeping from going over there and isn't that the most fascinating scent SQUIRRELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Lighten up on him, he's a baby.
He doesn't know stubborn, would you say that about a human child? He's no different, he's a baby, he's not stubborn, he doesn't know what you want.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Here is an article to back up what I replied earlier:

The alpha factor
Who's the boss around here, anyway?


Regardless of your reason for acquiring a puppy, you'll have to win it over. You, not your dog, will have to be the leader of the pack if your pup is to develop into a well-mannered family member instead of a burden. Dominance and alpha behavior are important concepts that every dog owner should comprehend.

Dogs are animals, not human beings. They are pack animals by nature. Every pack has a leader, known as the alpha animal, who dominates and leads the other members of the pack. The alpha is the boss who makes decisions for the entire pack. Usually the pack will have an alpha male and an alpha female. All the other members of the pack form a hierarchy of dominance and submission where everyone has a place.

In your home, you and your family become your dog's pack, as do any other dogs you may have. It is your responsibility to establish yourself in the alpha position. If you fail to do this, your dog will do it as a natural behavior. Many people assume that they are automatically in charge just because humans are superior to animals. But are you really the pack leader? Does your dog know it?

Being the pack leader does not mean you have to be big and aggressive. Nor does it mean that there has to be a battle of wills after which you are the victor. Anyone can be the pack leader. It is an attitude an air of authority. It is the basis for mutual respect, and provides the building blocks of communication between the two of you.

A pack animal becomes a full fledged member of the group by a process called subordination. With dogs, subordination begins shortly after the third week of life and continues throughout early development. Most normal, healthy puppies are basically pushy animals, and will try to advance as far as possible within the social order of the pack. The key to successfully rearing a puppy is to establish yourself as the pack leader and then maintain that position for the life of your dog.

So how do you become the alpha leader? In the wild, the adults of the pack begin early to teach the cubs the rules. The adults grab pups around the head or neck and gently, but firmly, pin them to the ground. The cubs learn to greet the adults with respect by approaching them using a slightly crouching posture, with ears back, tail down and wagging, and they lick the adults' muzzles. The cubs do this as a sign of respect and affection, not out of fear. It is called the subordination display, and its function is to keep peace and harmony within the pack.

Alpha exercises

Leadership exercises can confirm humans as the heads of the family pack. Once you establish this relationship, your dog will seek you out. He will want to be with you and will treat you with respect and affection. After he learns to submit to handling, all other tasks such as grooming, nail clipping, cleaning ears, and medicating will be easier to accomplish. But first he must learn that you have the power to handle him, and that handling will not lead to any harm. He must come to trust you entirely.

These exercises will help establish leadership but should not be used with an older pup who has learned to use his teeth to get his way. Exercises one and two are recommended only for small puppies up to three months of age. Exercises three and four are suitable for pups up to six months of age as long as there's no problem with aggression. Be gentle but firm with all exercises, as you would with a baby human.

Sit on the floor, then pick your pup up off the floor with both hands supporting him just behind his front legs, facing you. Hold him away from you at arms length. Look directly into his eyes. Growl at him if he struggles, using a low guttural sound. Hold him till he relaxes. Vary the time you hold him in this position from 15 to 45 seconds. Vary the location.
Sit on the floor and cradle your pup, placing one hand under his head and the other supporting his back so that he is upside down on his back, and up in the air. Hold a larger puppy across your lap. Hold the pup for 15 to 45 seconds, using the same growl as in exercise 1 if he struggles. Hold him until he relaxes.
If your puppy is large, substitute this exercise for the first two. Straddle your pup, with one of your legs on each side of him. You should be facing the same direction as your dog. Lock your fingers together under his chest, just behind the front legs. Lift his front legs off the ground for 15 to 45 seconds. If he struggles, growl at him till he is quiet.
Place your dog on the floor with all four legs pointing away from you. Hold him firmly by the neck with one hand, and press down on his midsection with the other hand. Talk to him softly after he is quiet. It might take two or three minutes to get him to relax. If he exposes his belly to be rubbed, you are on the right track. Do not allow him to struggle, get up, or nip. Always praise him lavishly in a quiet tone when he relaxes. Now is also a good time to handle all four paws and look briefly into his mouth so he can get used to tolerating your handling him gently. Be sure to do this exercise four or five times a day at first. Taper off as the pup gets more used to you and accepts your leadership.
The stare

Eye contact is also one of the ways order is kept in a wolf pack. Only an alpha animal may use the stare to remind everyone who is in charge. When you initiate eye contact, you express your alpha position. Encourage your pup to maintain eye contact for several seconds, making it a pleasant experience. Do not force him to do so. Use the term "watch me" and always praise him the instant you have eye contact. However, you do not want to try to do this with a dog who thinks he is already in charge of things. The dog must know you are the leader first. Otherwise you will begin a stare-down contest. An alpha dog will not be willing to be first to avert his eyes. If you are the first to avert or even blink your eyes, it will help confirm the dog's alpha status.

Alpha discipline: Pack leader activities

There are many pack leader activities you can use as part of a daily training routine. Probably the single most important command your dog can learn is "sit." You can incorporate "sit" into everyday situations as a reminder that you are in charge of things. Tell your dog to "sit" before you feed him, before you play, before he goes out the door. This shows the dog that he must respond to you before indulging in his own pleasures. If he is obedience trained, put him in a down-stay while you prepare his dinner.

Your dog will accept you as pack leader as long as you are consistent and fair in your demands. You must never permit him to growl or snap. If he does, a severe scruff shake is necessary, followed by no attention from you for 10 to 15 minutes. The scruff is the loose skin around the dog's neck. If your pet growls or snaps and you are not afraid to handle him, grab him firmly by the scruff with both hands, stare him in the eyes, and shake him. Then put him in his crate for 15-20 minutes and ignore him.

If your dog growls or snaps and you are afraid to discipline him, seek professional help. Don't ignore the incident; a dog allowed to threaten his family can easily become a biter.

Never overlook any challenge to your authority. Most dogs will test their owners, usually in adolescence. When the issue is settled immediately, it usually ends the matter.

There are several books that will help owners establish leadership to assure a long, healthy relationship with a pet. There are also several training clubs and businesses in the area for those who prefer an instructor's assistance and for those who need help with problem dogs.
WI12345 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
counter surfing , jumping and biting , pulling on the leash

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome