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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:00 AM
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"Time out: seems to be the only thing that works for us, but at least right now doesn't seem terribly useful in teaching her not to put teeth on people at all yet."

You are spot on time out doesn't teach them what you want them to do. The problem is once the pup is over excited they don't hear you. They are in their own little zone. So, that isn't the time to train them. As I said in my first post when they are over excited just put them in the crate and let them calm down. The crate isn't used as a punishment it is a management tool so they cannot practice inappropriate behaviors. And learn bad habits.

The training happens at other times when the pup is in a much better state of mind. It takes about 500 "good" repetitions to get a solid behavior.

This week when I was teaching a private my student said but my dog does sit when I ask him in the kitchen so he knows the command. I asked the student can your dog sit when you ask him to (at the sidewalk curb outside the house, at the park, when other dogs walk by, at school, at the doggie store, etc. She said he doesn't listen at those places and times. The simple answer is the dog really doesn't know the command yet. Many dogs don't generalize well and need the practice in many situations building up on the distractions and their actual excitement level in the process of training. By doing the training in calm slow increments it builds up muscle memory in the dog and eventually these commands/cues become almost automatic and they don't have to think to do them. This is when the dog knows the cue/command.

By attempting to train the pup/dog when they are over excited we just frustrate ourselves and frustrate them and no learning takes place.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:01 AM
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Oh got it! That makes sense...I remember that tip now about not being on the floor at their level. We did that method too sometimes, and put all together with other stuff we did, worked. Gosh, it's so hard raising a puppy. Worth it, but so hard!

You probably already know this....but consistent use of marker words, both positive and negative, should begin to work. "No!" "uh-uh" "Yes!" I wonder if clicker training might work...rewarding the dog for not mouthing. Catching him being good and rewarding that behavior. The word "Yes!" can be used instead of the clicker of course...or do both. hahaha! Sorry....just throwing stuff out there.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:08 AM
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He is still very mouthy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia M View Post
Sorry Erika. I admit she ticked me off with the constant attacks. I wondered if I should have said what I had to say to her in a private message instead of hijacking your thread.
Meanwhile I hope Chester will stop biting soon for his own good, yours and the kids who visit.
Not a she. I'll leave the rest of your rubbish alone for now. Have a great day.


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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:14 PM
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I posted this on another thread about how my DD had to find her voice and posture with Rose. It cost her a night of redoing an entire chapter of AP Euro History.

One thing those "little monsters" know is when we mean business and when we don't. And I am not talking about frustration but the way we command them to do something. And when I say the way we command is both voice and posture. Women are at a disadvantage because of the soft high pitched voice which many times the puppies hear as play time and do not take seriously, it actually makes them even more excited. And if you can't find that voice and posture, you just have to wait out for them to grow and then hope and pray that they will try to please you when you do get frustrated.
Think of bootcamp, think of military trainers: repetitive stiff, stern and short commands. Followed of course by motherly good praises and treats.
Recently Joyce (Bentleysmom) posted about poor little sweet Bentley going to boot camp. And it has to be the way it is meant.
Each dog is different not just by breed but even in the same breed, each puppy has it's own personality. We get them at 8 weeks and from there on we try to figure out their personality.
As my DH says - he has never had a golden like Rose.

She is smart and eager to please. You show a little frustration and she really tried to figure out what she did and how to correct it.

Example: I was trying to teach her to retrieve the bumper and come around me while holding it, sit in a heel position with the bumper held tight and straight in her mouth. She kept on dropping it by my feet and them come around to my left. On Sunday I was just exasperated. I said NO, HOLD IT and then do it. Well, when I yelled like that I knew it was time to quit. I took the bumper threw it in the hunting box. I was mad because I got frustrated and I was mad because I had no clue how to make her understand what I wanted. She came to me all lovey dovey, slept on my bed all night. The next morning, I cringed but still got the bumper out of the box. There she was trotting and happy waiting for me to throw it and give the command to go get it. Hesitantly she got it, came back around and held the darn bumper. I did not breath, I did not say a word, I did not move a nano-millimeter the whole time.

But at the same time she is stubborn and sneaky.

Example: Last night she was in one bedroom licking a pair of pants hanging off the bed. I looked at her and she put her head down on the floor as if she was sleeping. I look at the TV she moves her head back to the pants. So I get up, she quickly goes under the bed just her head and eyes out as if to tell me that she has been there the entire time and I am crazy to think that her tongue was near those pants, after all it has been snowing outside.

Why am I giving these silly examples? Because that is who she is in a little nutshell. Me being upset and frustrated was enough for her to search that brain and figure out how to do it while I was figuring out how to tell her what I want. No prong, jerking, squirting or e-collar was necessary. If I did that I would have lost her trust in me and she would not try to please.

Two months ago she was still confined in the hallway for about 3 hours at 5 months. Well no matter what chewing stuff she had she decided to go for the wood trim. (Silently I was happy because now I finally have an excuse to change it). I would come home and I would say OH NO, WHAT DID YOU DO! THAT IS BAD! She would quickly go into the kitchen since the pet gate was opened and come back with her head down and sat by me licking me as if trying to tell me "Sorry mom I just couldn't help it!" I tried bitter apple one day, moved up to bitter yuck the next day. All I got was diarrhea and more chewed up trim. So my fear was that she will hurt herself chewing that wood. I told DH - we need to get a crate maybe these new methods using a crate do have a purpose. His response - Over my dead body will you cage "Precious". So I went the opposite direction. Instead of using a crate I opened the bedroom. Moved all the plants out, made sure there was nothing but the furniture and the bedding there for her to get into. (And no I like my bedroom furniture and did not plan on getting a new set). One weekend, I left the bedroom door open, open the window curtains and left the house. I came back after 30 minutes - nothing. I left again and came back after an hour and a half - nothing. The next day it was a Sunday I left again and came back in 3 hours - nothing.
So from there on she has been allowed alone in the house with the bedrooms doors opened for 3 - 4 hours a day from the age of 6 months on. And she is more tired when I get home, because she watched the birds outside, the neighbors walking by with or without their dogs, she sees the cars - and all that seems to keep her quite preoccupied. Each day I add more things to expose her to and try to test her on. I added one book on the nightstand, I added a picture on the dresser, I added the lamp back on, I added the throw back on the bed, I left the laptop on the bed.

I admit upfront, I am not a good dog reader and I am happy to have DH who since 1972 has gone thru several puppies and at one time had an entire litter of puppies in the house. I am learning myself to find that fine line between being the bootcamp trainer and the motherly reward giver. I may be an outdated, old fashion in my approach but always remember that even the best trainers of today still refer and build on what the old fashion guys have set as a platform.
I do not agree that the zoomies are fun and do not allow them inside or outside. Zoomie to me means time out for the puppy in order to find its shut off button and then he/she can come back out. As Solinvictus says at those times everything is out the window, they don't hear you, they don't see you.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:25 PM
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A lot of good information on here with different ideas on how to go about it. I too am noticing Keisel getting more mouthy. I'm a huge Cesar Milan fan so when he acts up I stand straight up with a calm and assertive attitude and say 'no'. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't I just tap his side to get his attention and then say no. It's been working only when Keisel is low-medium level excitement. I agree that if they are above that level - it's useless and only a cause of frustration for you. I'm trying to find a way to calm him down because putting him in the crate is rubbing me the wrong way. Probably because I already know the consequences when the puppy relates the crate to something negative.

I hope in the next few puppy classes, watching a few more YouTube videos mentioned here and trying them with Keisel, something will click for him. When that does happen - I will use that same method only and be consistent. I did feed him tonight and said gentle.. it took him a good 5 minutes but he finally got it. I'm hoping with repetitions of that will help him during play and I say 'gentle'.

Claudia - interesting opinion about the 'zoomies'. I do think it's cute as a puppy but always thought if it was healthy for them to expend their energy in that manner. It's the highest level of excitement which in my eyes should only be exerted when I say so, not when he feels like it. Also makes me think how 'cute' it will be when he's another 20-40lbs heavier and running into things... yikes!

Please keep us updated Erika on your progress and any feedback you get with trying whatever method you decide to do!!
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:31 PM
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He is still very mouthy!

I assume she can hear me during zoomies, because if I say "hungry," she stops in her tracks, and sits down by her dish.


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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:38 PM
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Roushbabe: I've had adult dogs get the zoomies. You just stay out of their way. I think it's natures way of getting rid of a lot of energy. Besides that, I love the smile they get when they're doing it
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:40 PM
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He is still very mouthy!

Bear gets bratty if he gets the zoomies inside. If i try to quell it, its just a disaster, so now at 9 pm i go outside with a flashlight and we run around for 40 minutes. By the end of it, he's ready for some pre-bed chewing and we're both exhausted.


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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:43 PM
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I love zoomies.

I love training cue's using a whisper (or just very low and soft spoken) to change things up. The dog really has to pay attention to hear you.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:52 PM
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Roushbabe I would suggest getting the DVD by Susan Garrett "Crate Games".

My dog loves his crate. At home he chooses to go in it himself. It is funny when my sons 2 labs are here there are times when someone chooses to be in the crate and someone else wants in.

I never put my dog into the crate as a punishment/correction. Using the crate games to train, I have a dog that will willingly go in to the crate when I ask him. You can teach a lot of impulse control using the crate.
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