Am I doing it wrong? - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

GoldenRetrieverForum.com is the premier Golden Retriever Dog Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:11 AM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: England
Posts: 13
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Am I doing it wrong?

Hiya, I found this place on Google while looking for answers to why my family's dogs are so aggressive.

My question....is am I training my two puppies wrong at 9 weeks? I got two siblings from the same litter, both of whom chose me, the problems are several.

I'll sum them up below

A, I've been trying to train them with commands, I read online to keep it very short and very concise, a 'Here' works better than 'Come here now Elsa you dog', a point the rest of my family don't get. Is there a foolproof (yeah right!) method for training them? It seems to vary, Gelert, the male, usually comes if called and he's looking straight at me, yet Elsa, the female responds to my voice no matter what I say. They don't seem to get their names yet, what's the typical length of time for them to start learning what their names are....and have they even got the right names?

B, Related to that point above, a pet peeve (no pun intended) is that the rest of my family (my parents are the worst for this) treat both dogs, Elsa, which me and my father share, and Gelert, which is hers, like babies. Now, everything I've read online says NOT to do this, that it doesn't help one bit. Adding to that is the fact my family travels and works a lot so it's usually just me looking after both dogs. I tend to treat them like dogs and remind them I'm their pack leader by rolling them over and making sure they submit to me, which has worked okay, though Gelert's challenging that as of this morning.

C, Is there a way to get them to stop chewing besides chew toys? I did buy them some that for the most part, they aren't into. They'd much rather chew the walls or furniture or shoes, I've had an older Retriever before and she never did that, instead she chewed on dog toys. Whereas the two I got currently chew on anything they can get to, feet, ankles, socks, garbage bins, you name it.

D. Barking. This is the big problem. It's mostly Gelert that does this and I'm wondering if it's seperation anxiety. Whenever my parents go out, or at night they're in a cage, the problem is Gelert starts barking straight away and won't stop until my parents come back or somebody gets up to see to him, I've tried leaving a radio on or standing where he can see me. That doesn't work at all, it's got to the point where nobody in the house can sleep due to his whining, I did try covering the cage with towels to try to make it more like a den but he just barked more.

E. Fighting. Second big problem here, is that Gelert seems to be coming out with a majorly aggressive streak, he pushes Elsa off her food and whenever I go to stroke Elsa or dry her off from being outside, he charges in and demands attention, should I push him away and make him accept he's lower in the pack than myself and Elsa?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:40 AM
heathermom's Avatar
Buddy Holly
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 78
Thanks: 0
Thanked 47 Times in 22 Posts
I have two 11 week old Golden puppies, and I am hardly an expert, but I can tell you what I have been doing that is working so far.

Names - I don't think they know their own names yet, but they know Buddy and Holly. We start SEPARATE puppy classes this week and this should help with them learning their own name.

Chewing - Puppies chew on anything!! I mean anything!! we use bitter apple to help them avoid and I have found that changing the toys up, putting one a way for while, etc. helps to bring their interest back.

Barking - I cant really help here, Buddy and Holly have done really well on this one, and it is not a current problem. One thing I did do though is never responded while they whined or barked and always came when it was quiet. I still will not open pen unless sitting, they are getting so good at it, they do it automatically.

Fighting- Are they fighting or playing or a mixture? Buddy and Holly have their "rough" play time, but I make them go outside for that, when they are in the house, We really work on human play with kids or adults, we keep them separate from each other as much as possible, to try and ensure they are bonding with all of us and not just each other. I am really strict with the only time they can be beside each other in house is to eat or rest or in the pen. Otherwise I want them bonding and playing with humans. So far it works pretty good, we even get them both playing fetch (or for right now throw the ball and they run after at) if they lose interest in us and want each other I put them outside where they seem to run and chase in the snow.

I treat them like babies when I can, but I have my line and when they cross it I am firm with the rules, I think they know I am pack leader, they still test it from time to time, but I make sure I always win.!!!!LOL

I am equal with the loving... if they want it when another is getting it, I give it to them both. It seems to work, they come together sometimes, but sometimes they just go off and let me love one. I really want to avoid jealous with the humans if I can.

I hope this helps a bit, like I said I am NOT an expert or even experienced, but I am finding 2 pups to be a blessing, it is double the work, which I expected, double the trouble and double the love!!!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:46 AM
laprincessa's Avatar
Max's Mom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 9,876
Thanks: 4,794
Thanked 4,201 Times in 2,407 Posts
Since you're not a dog, they most likely will never see you as "pack leader" and rolling them over really isn't a good idea. Treating them like babies? They ARE babies, a few weeks old! They don't know their names because they're babies. Keep reminding yourself of how many days they've been on this earth, and don't expect too much right now.
I would expect that the fighting is play, Golden puppies look fierce when they play. Competing for attention is normal - just make sure you give equal attention to both. Barking was never a problem here, but I'm sure if you search the puppy forum, you'll find good advice to help with that.
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:47 AM
Tayla's Mom's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 3,367
Thanks: 1,535
Thanked 3,334 Times in 1,770 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticfang View Post
Hiya, I found this place on Google while looking for answers to why my family's dogs are so aggressive.

My question....is am I training my two puppies wrong at 9 weeks? I got two siblings from the same litter, both of whom chose me, the problems are several.

I'll sum them up below

A, I've been trying to train them with commands, I read online to keep it very short and very concise, a 'Here' works better than 'Come here now Elsa you dog', a point the rest of my family don't get. Is there a foolproof (yeah right!) method for training them? It seems to vary, Gelert, the male, usually comes if called and he's looking straight at me, yet Elsa, the female responds to my voice no matter what I say. They don't seem to get their names yet, what's the typical length of time for them to start learning what their names are....and have they even got the right names?

B, Related to that point above, a pet peeve (no pun intended) is that the rest of my family (my parents are the worst for this) treat both dogs, Elsa, which me and my father share, and Gelert, which is hers, like babies. Now, everything I've read online says NOT to do this, that it doesn't help one bit. Adding to that is the fact my family travels and works a lot so it's usually just me looking after both dogs. I tend to treat them like dogs and remind them I'm their pack leader by rolling them over and making sure they submit to me, which has worked okay, though Gelert's challenging that as of this morning.

C, Is there a way to get them to stop chewing besides chew toys? I did buy them some that for the most part, they aren't into. They'd much rather chew the walls or furniture or shoes, I've had an older Retriever before and she never did that, instead she chewed on dog toys. Whereas the two I got currently chew on anything they can get to, feet, ankles, socks, garbage bins, you name it.

D. Barking. This is the big problem. It's mostly Gelert that does this and I'm wondering if it's seperation anxiety. Whenever my parents go out, or at night they're in a cage, the problem is Gelert starts barking straight away and won't stop until my parents come back or somebody gets up to see to him, I've tried leaving a radio on or standing where he can see me. That doesn't work at all, it's got to the point where nobody in the house can sleep due to his whining, I did try covering the cage with towels to try to make it more like a den but he just barked more.

E. Fighting. Second big problem here, is that Gelert seems to be coming out with a majorly aggressive streak, he pushes Elsa off her food and whenever I go to stroke Elsa or dry her off from being outside, he charges in and demands attention, should I push him away and make him accept he's lower in the pack than myself and Elsa?
#1 Don't roll dogs to show you are the pack leader. This can lead to fear and agression. You want them to respect you and not fear you. Wolves have pack leaders, dog's have owners they love and respect.

#2 They are pretty young yet to be really good on recalls, etc. Say their names and then come. Say their names often and reward when they look at you. Work with them individually every day and keep the sessions short.

#3 Goldens chew on everything as puppies. Tayla's favorite chew was unfortunately body parts. Make sure you trade them for inappropriate things whey are chewing and if that doesn't work, bitter apple spray may work and a good stern "No bite" or "No chew" can work.

#4 Puppies that age aren't agressive. They are pushy hungry little things and maybe you should feed them apart. Jesse, our oldest Golden, eats in the kitchen and Tayla, our 14 month old, eat in the dining room.

I'm bothered by the whole pack mentality issue. Of course you are higher on the totem pole so to speak, but you get that way by gaining their love and respect. There may be a pack order between the two puppies and that is fine, but you won't get to the top by shows of dominance. Positive training is the only way you will get to where you want to be. They must want to follow you because you are a fun and interesting person to follow not because you are someone to be feared.

I hope this helps. They are very young and training will be a continued life long pursuit. At 14 months Tayla is still a little iffy on come if she finds something more important to do so we work on it all the time. Good luck.
__________________
Barb, Rick, "Tayla" Ruff Start Hot On The Trail (STAR Puppy) (Born 11/11, Gotcha 3/12) and "Lily" Stargazer's Make It So, CGC (Gotcha 12/21/13)






Cheyenne (CGC) and Jesse (CGC) who will be always loved and never forgotten.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tayla's Mom For This Useful Post:
Claire's Friend (01-09-2013), laprincessa (01-09-2013)
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Megora's Avatar
Kate
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 15,815
Thanks: 6,523
Thanked 9,315 Times in 5,183 Posts
Quote:
A, I've been trying to train them with commands, I read online to keep it very short and very concise, a 'Here' works better than 'Come here now Elsa you dog', a point the rest of my family don't get. Is there a foolproof (yeah right!) method for training them? It seems to vary, Gelert, the male, usually comes if called and he's looking straight at me, yet Elsa, the female responds to my voice no matter what I say. They don't seem to get their names yet, what's the typical length of time for them to start learning what their names are....and have they even got the right names?
Teaching them their names takes a couple weeks or more, depending on the puppies, depending on your consistency. All training takes consistency. Use treats and positive rewards (play and praise) and they learn a LOT faster. Timing helps as well - marking when they've done something right.

Quote:
B, Related to that point above, a pet peeve (no pun intended) is that the rest of my family (my parents are the worst for this) treat both dogs, Elsa, which me and my father share, and Gelert, which is hers, like babies. Now, everything I've read online says NOT to do this, that it doesn't help one bit. Adding to that is the fact my family travels and works a lot so it's usually just me looking after both dogs. I tend to treat them like dogs and remind them I'm their pack leader by rolling them over and making sure they submit to me, which has worked okay, though Gelert's challenging that as of this morning.
I'm with your family. Dogs are family. I'm not making my dogs submit to me. I do believe that the trainer needs to be the "leader" or "authority figure", but calm and gentle authority usually does the job.

Quote:
C, Is there a way to get them to stop chewing besides chew toys? I did buy them some that for the most part, they aren't into. They'd much rather chew the walls or furniture or shoes, I've had an older Retriever before and she never did that, instead she chewed on dog toys. Whereas the two I got currently chew on anything they can get to, feet, ankles, socks, garbage bins, you name it.
Look in their mouths. If they have bruised gums, it means they are teething and they need to chew. Sometimes trying out different chew items helps locate something that they WANT to chew vs insisting that they chew on a specific item that worked before. Holding the chew toy in your hand for them sometimes helps.

Anxiety and stress also makes them need to chew. As does boredom. Keep that in mind.

I know with my guys they are going out several times a day to burn off their energy. Golden retrievers are an active and intelligent and affectionate breed. They need companionship. They need attention. They need daily interaction with their family, daily exercise, they need to get outside several times a day to play and run - while somebody is home and keeping an eye on them.

Quote:
D. Barking. This is the big problem. It's mostly Gelert that does this and I'm wondering if it's seperation anxiety. Whenever my parents go out, or at night they're in a cage, the problem is Gelert starts barking straight away and won't stop until my parents come back or somebody gets up to see to him, I've tried leaving a radio on or standing where he can see me. That doesn't work at all, it's got to the point where nobody in the house can sleep due to his whining, I did try covering the cage with towels to try to make it more like a den but he just barked more.
I would go back to square one with crate training. I don't care what anyone says - there is no reason for crate training to include a puppy getting worked up and barking and crying itself to sleep. For the longest time I was anti-crating because of that idea. Having just crate trained both my boys, I have a completely different perspective now on the whole thing. Neither dog has ever barked in the crate or shown any anxiety - a lot of that is because I followed various instructions on playing crate games and always keeping that place positive and AWESOME for the dogs.

My Jacks who never saw the inside of a crate until he was about 4.5 years old will go into the open crate to sleep without anyone telling him. Or I can put him in the crate while we are somewhere and I have to walk away out of sight... while he would bark if I tied him up to a wall or gave him to a stranger, he will be quiet and relaxed while sitting in the crate.

Go online and look up crate games and get busy.

Also suggest putting the crate in a bedroom where he feels safe. Reading over your entire post I get the idea he is more insecure and needy.

Quote:
E. Fighting. Second big problem here, is that Gelert seems to be coming out with a majorly aggressive streak, he pushes Elsa off her food and whenever I go to stroke Elsa or dry her off from being outside, he charges in and demands attention, should I push him away and make him accept he's lower in the pack than myself and Elsa?
I would drop the pack stuff. You do not choose who is the alpha dog. And I honestly don't see what you describe here as fighting.

The pack positioning - they sort that out themselves. Ideally whatever the dogs figure out with themselves, they will understand that you will still be the one in charge.

Asserting authority does not mean pinning, growling, snarling... or any other kind of inhuman positioning or behavior. It's calm authority. And give and take.

What your job in the cases above is to gently send him off to do something else. Or put a baby gate up to keep the pups seperate while you are cleaning his sister or feeding them.

What you describe is not aggression. It's one pup being more demanding and pushy than the other.
__________________

Last edited by Megora; 01-09-2013 at 11:56 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Megora For This Useful Post:
Tahnee GR (01-09-2013)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 01:27 PM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: England
Posts: 13
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Okay I'm trying to take these one at a time, starting with the cage. I want to move it, but there is nowhere upstairs big enough to put it, it simply wouldn't fit up the stairs while it's put together. I'm trying to think of how else to stop them whining at night, aside from sleeping downstairs in the next room. I've read so much on it that honestly I'm confused on what to do about it, I can tell my parents Gelert's insecure until I'm blue in the face but I know they won't move the cage, even if it's in the room where I am with my comp (which probably wouldn't make a lot of difference really as I'm on it most days), though like I said the cage won't fit in any of the rooms upstairs and my parents are adamant the dogs sleep downstairs (the sole reason their last dog slept upstairs was due to poor health).

It wasn't my choice to keep them in a cage at all, that was the breeder's advice, however personally I want to get them into beds as soon as possible so they can feel more at home, I tend to think of the cage in their minds as a kind of prison (yes, I'm crazy), and I want to get away from that idea ASAP. Besides, the cage just looks awful in the kitchen taking up a lot of space.

As far as being pushy goes, I've just had a perfect example. Elsa wanted food as she doesn't get a lot with Gelert pushing her off of food, so I went to get her food bowl.

Gelert came charging in at full speed and ran into both her and me so I dropped the (empty) bowl, whch point he shoved her out of the way and began whining for food. He won't listen, I can tell him to go away for a few minutes or he can settle in the cage (which I think is totally and utterly in the wrong place), but as soon as I go to talk to Elsa (or anyone does), he's over jumping up and pawing and barking at them, when he gets told no, he's still doing the same thing.

Another thing is there's a low wall at the front of my home, even without a running start I'm concerned both dogs will be able to climb onto and over it. Am I being too paranoid about it or am I right that even without a running start, a dog can get up on to a low wall? I've seen cats that are smaller than both dogs leap up onto it (though taking into account cats are also a lot lighter)

Training, is it worth spending money on a professional or finding what works? I've been reading over various articles by a lot of people and making notes and seeing what they all have in common.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 01:40 PM
Tayla's Mom's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 3,367
Thanks: 1,535
Thanked 3,334 Times in 1,770 Posts
On the training issue I would say if you are experienced you can go it alone. This isn't the the case here. I would seek profession training. Make sure that you find someone who trains in only positive methods. It will get you the best results in the long run. If you want to try some things yourself there are some great YouTube videos under Kikopups. Until you know what you are doing and how to accomplish your goals, go with a good trainer.

Please don't think of crates as cages or prisons. They are a place of rest and comfort where dogs can go when they need some time. While I don't know your situation, they also make any kind of traveling with them much more convenient and safe. Tayla, who was a horrible puppy until she was 12 months old, got lots of time outs in her crate. They were kept positive and she always had a treat when she went in. She got very bitey when overly tired and she never would rest on her own, so enforced rests were a must.
__________________
Barb, Rick, "Tayla" Ruff Start Hot On The Trail (STAR Puppy) (Born 11/11, Gotcha 3/12) and "Lily" Stargazer's Make It So, CGC (Gotcha 12/21/13)






Cheyenne (CGC) and Jesse (CGC) who will be always loved and never forgotten.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tayla's Mom For This Useful Post:
dandiewind (01-11-2013)
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 01:56 PM
laprincessa's Avatar
Max's Mom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 9,876
Thanks: 4,794
Thanked 4,201 Times in 2,407 Posts
Try covering the crate at night - a light sheet that goes almost to the floor but leaves air space worked well for us. That seemed to signal bedtime to Max.

And do what Megora says - the crate is a good place, a safe place. Curious, are they both in the same crate? Don't be in a rush to get them out of it, let them have it as their own space, and like someone else said, a place to settle when they get overtired, over-excited, etc. Max's crate is still in the kitchen, although he's too big for it (makes a handy storage spot ) and when we had guests over on New Year's Eve, it became a nap spot for their GSD puppy.
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 02:26 PM
Kristen; Buddy's Human
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 525
Thanks: 138
Thanked 253 Times in 174 Posts
Another temporary fix that might help is feeding them in completely opposite areas. My Golden will steal food from my mix. When I feed him, I put him in their play area with baby gates up so he stays in that area until the other dog has finished.

One of the other things I found that helped (and I taught Buddy this one at 9 weeks so he was still pretty young) was teaching both dogs to sit and wait for food. They still get wriggly and jumpy and excited for a meal, sure, but they both know that if I have a bowl with food in it they better sit their butts down and wait for me to say "get it". It also gives me time to separate them if need be.

Baby gates, by the way, are one of the most beautiful inventions on the planet. Seriously. Invest in a couple, make your pups a "space", and you won't be sorry.

As for the chewing, I re-directed until I was blue in the face but I actually found for my boy that ice cubes worked best, even before he was teething. He loves them! I would give him one and he'd actually eat it instead of not being interested. Now I can't go the freezer without a very attentive dog behind me
__________________



“Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, it's at the end of your arm. As you get older, remember you have another hand: The first is to help yourself, the second is to help others.” (Audrey Hepburn)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 03:16 PM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: England
Posts: 13
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by laprincessa View Post
Try covering the crate at night - a light sheet that goes almost to the floor but leaves air space worked well for us. That seemed to signal bedtime to Max.

And do what Megora says - the crate is a good place, a safe place. Curious, are they both in the same crate? Don't be in a rush to get them out of it, let them have it as their own space, and like someone else said, a place to settle when they get overtired, over-excited, etc. Max's crate is still in the kitchen, although he's too big for it (makes a handy storage spot ) and when we had guests over on New Year's Eve, it became a nap spot for their GSD puppy.
They are in the same crate yes. Elsa already sits without being told to, she just walks over and sits down looking at me (I wound up with Elsa on my feet under the table while I was eating dinner and Gelert asleep on a rug a few feet away, It's great when he's asleep, don't get me wrong. I just wish he'd sleep more often.) whereas with Gelert it's more a battle to get him tired enough to either listen or sleep.

I did try draping several towls over that I duct taped together in lieu of a sheet, but that didn't work too well. I've looked at the website of the trainer I got coming on Friday but I got a few questions, not enough to outright say no this isn't good, but more a few what if questions.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:49 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
© Golden Retriever Forum .com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69