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Alpha dog training?

1K views 11 replies 11 participants last post by  LilBitBit 
#1 · (Edited)
I have been reading some postings on behavorial issues on this forum. & someone with food aggression issues, mentioned that the trainer is using Dog Whisperer methods in an effort to correct these serious issues. Another member responded that this method was old school & should not be used.

My puppy is only just four months old & does not appear to have food guarding problems, but was wondering when this might begin to display itself, if he was going to develop this? What signs should I be watching out for! So that I can catch it very early on if he is going to go through this? At the moment, I feed Loki in the kitchen with our papillon walking about, & the papillon will often go up & nose around Loki's bowl while Loki is eating, & he does not appear bothered. I do not feed the papillon his meals when the puppy is in the same room. I give Jontay his meals either in the hall, where he is used to being fed to prevent the cats from trying to steal his food ......he would stand back & let them! I always give Loki a couple of special treat pieces of food, seconds before I take Jontay into the hall with his food & close the door between them. I have been doing this since Loki joined us nine weeks ago & there has never been a problem. Then Jontay comes back into the kitchen when he has finished & I allow Loki to lick Jontay's bowl ....Loki has already just had his own meal, but he really hangs out to do this, & I cannot see any harm in it ...Jontay's bowl is always empty, but Loki still likes to lick around it. So no issues with food, apart from Loki gobbling down his own treats & then whirling around to try & get Jontay's, which I don't allow, but I guess this is normal pup behaviour & he is getting much better now.

Going back to the Dog Whisperer techniques ....are these the same as Alpha Dog training? I use an English Certified Behavorialist trainer ...we travel forty minutes by car, each way, as have heard she is very good ....she has a training school & does this full time, with doggy daycare as well ....also does agility etc. She gets us to use treats to teach our pups/dogs & she never punishes, so I guess this would be the same as the clicker training I do with Loki at home ...positive reinforcement. However, she tells people off (me included) for talking to their pups/dogs ....she calls anything other than giving direct commands, 'white noise' & says puppies/dogs only need to be talked to when giving a command, otherwise it just confuses them. I like to chat to my pets, so this is proving quite hard for me, I must say! I realise that during training sessions, one should just give commands, so as the puppy can clearly understand. But surely I should be able to talk to my puppy in those times when we are not training? She does encourage us to give praise 'good boy/girl' but if she hears anyone just chatting .....eg I might be saying to Loki something like 'Well aren't you having a lovely time, playing in the water' ....& she will look firmly at me & tell off for making 'white noise'. Has anyone come across this before? Talking to my pets comes as natural as breathing to me. Also, she says we must never allow our dogs to go out a door before us ....we must always initiate games & always end the game. We must never allow our dogs to walk away from us to end a game ...we must walk away from them before the game is finished. We must never allow our puppy to win a game of tug. And if they bring the ball for a game of fetch, we should ignore them, but a minute later we can pick up the ball & initiate a game. A couple of weeks ago, she taught us how to place the puppy's bowl of food on the floor at meal times, but then block him from getting to the bowl by moving around it, as he moves around to get at his food. She says the puppy must learn that he can only have his food when we invite it to do so. Also told us to take the bowl away from the puppy as he was eating his meal, then make him sit until we were ready to give it back. I really could not see why I needed to do this, so I have not been doing it. Should I be doing it?
 
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#2 ·
I talk to my dogs all the time. I live alone; I need someone to talk to!
 
#3 ·
I have two Goldens, and I always feed them separately, with a gate between them. When they are finished, the little one runs to Tess's bowl to see if she left anything. I have never had a problem with resource guarding, from either dog. And I talk to my dogs all the time. White noise? Nonsense. When you are training it may be different, but you are not training the whole day long...
 
#4 ·
I use positive training too but I talk to my dogs alot my dogs understand what I am saying they have huge vocabularies. I let Vendetta end her game of fetch as she has some health issues due to lymes and she knows when she is tired I dont. I let my dogs go outside first lots of times because sometimes I dont go out right away. I live in the country and in the morning I need to use the bathroom just as much as they do hence they go outside first then I go out. I guess if this is a good trainer I would use her but I would talk to my dogs it is a bonding thing not white noise.
 
#5 ·
I have been reading some postings on behavorial issues on this forum. & someone with food aggression issues, mentioned that the trainer is using Dog Whisperer methods in an effort to correct these serious issues. Another member responded that this method was old school & should not be used.

My puppy is only just four months old & does not appear to have food guarding problems, but was wondering when this might begin to display itself, if he was going to develop this? What signs should I be watching out for! So that I can catch it very early on if he is going to go through this? At the moment, I feed Loki in the kitchen with our papillon walking about, & the papillon will often go up & nose around Loki's bowl while Loki is eating, & he does not appear bothered. I do not feed the papillon his meals when the puppy is in the same room. I give Jontay his meals either in the hall, where he is used to being fed to prevent the cats from trying to steal his food ......he would stand back & let them! I always give Loki a couple of special treat pieces of food, seconds before I take Jontay into the hall with his food & close the door between them. I have been doing this since Loki joined us nine weeks ago & there has never been a problem. Then Jontay comes back into the kitchen when he has finished & I allow Loki to lick Jontay's bowl ....Loki has already just had his own meal, but he really hangs out to do this, & I cannot see any harm in it ...Jontay's bowl is always empty, but Loki still likes to lick around it. So no issues with food, apart from Loki gobbling down his own treats & then whirling around to try & get Jontay's, which I don't allow, but I guess this is normal pup behaviour & he is getting much better now.

Going back to the Dog Whisperer techniques ....are these the same as Alpha Dog training? I use an English Certified Behavorialist trainer ...we travel forty minutes by car, each way, as have heard she is very good ....she has a training school & does this full time, with doggy daycare as well ....also does agility etc. She gets us to use treats to teach our pups/dogs & she never punishes, so I guess this would be the same as the clicker training I do with Loki at home ...positive reinforcement. However, she tells people off (me included) for talking to their pups/dogs ....she calls anything other than giving direct commands, 'white noise' & says puppies/dogs only need to be talked to when giving a command, otherwise it just confuses them. I like to chat to my pets, so this is proving quite hard for me, I must say! I realise that during training sessions, one should just give commands, so as the puppy can clearly understand. But surely I should be able to talk to my puppy in those times when we are not training? She does encourage us to give praise 'good boy/girl' but if she hears anyone just chatting .....eg I might be saying to Loki something like 'Well aren't you having a lovely time, playing in the water' ....& she will look firmly at me & tell off for making 'white noise'. Has anyone come across this before? Talking to my pets comes as natural as breathing to me. Also, she says we must never allow our dogs to go out a door before us ....we must always initiate games & always end the game. We must never allow our dogs to walk away from us to end a game ...we must walk away from them before the game is finished. We must never allow our puppy to win a game of tug. And if they bring the ball for a game of fetch, we should ignore them, but a minute later we can pick up the ball & initiate a game. A couple of weeks ago, she taught us how to place the puppy's bowl of food on the floor at meal times, but then block him from getting to the bowl by moving around it, as he moves around to get at his food. She says the puppy must learn that he can only have his food when we invite it to do so. Also told us to take the bowl away from the puppy as he was eating his meal, then make him sit until we were ready to give it back. I really could not see why I needed to do this, so I have not been doing it. Should I be doing it?
TALK to your dog! (Maybe not in class) but yes talk to your dog, it helps to keep their attention on you -especially helpful in training loose leash walking.
If you want to play a game with your dog - do it! If your dog invites you to play by bringing a ball - if you want to play- go for it. If you don't want to play - don't play. It doesn't matter who ends the game.
Before you play tug - he should have a solid understanding of 'take it' and 'drop it' on cue. And yes, let him win, if/when you choose, it is a game, if he never 'wins', why would he play? Use a toy specifically reserved for the tug game, bring it out when you want to play, put it away when you are done.
Doorways - teach door manners - teach you pup to sit and wait until you get the door open, then release to go through - doesn't matter if it is before or after you.

Food bowl - ask your pup for a sit, then give him the bowl. If he gets up as you are placing the food bowl down, lift it up, and wait for the sit, it will happen. Once he is offering the sit before you put the bowl down, teach him to wait to be released to eat. Start with the bowl a short distance away from him, and use a very brief 'wait' then, release to eat. Slowly increase the time you ask him to wait, and remember to give the release cue. However - no need to stretch it out too long.
 
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#6 ·
I would recommend reading Before and After getting your puppy by Dr. Ian Dunbar. He goes over a lot of the things you are asking about. I also saw a video interview that he gave where he talks about the need for dogs to hear their owners voices, and while he says clicker training is good and has its place that owners need to talk to their dogs.
 
#7 ·
I have been reading some postings on behavorial issues on this forum. & someone with food aggression issues, mentioned that the trainer is using Dog Whisperer methods in an effort to correct these serious issues. Another member responded that this method was old school & should not be used.

My puppy is only just four months old & does not appear to have food guarding problems, but was wondering when this might begin to display itself, if he was going to develop this? What signs should I be watching out for! So that I can catch it very early on if he is going to go through this? At the moment, I feed Loki in the kitchen with our papillon walking about, & the papillon will often go up & nose around Loki's bowl while Loki is eating, & he does not appear bothered. I do not feed the papillon his meals when the puppy is in the same room. I give Jontay his meals either in the hall, where he is used to being fed to prevent the cats from trying to steal his food ......he would stand back & let them! I always give Loki a couple of special treat pieces of food, seconds before I take Jontay into the hall with his food & close the door between them. I have been doing this since Loki joined us nine weeks ago & there has never been a problem. Then Jontay comes back into the kitchen when he has finished & I allow Loki to lick Jontay's bowl ....Loki has already just had his own meal, but he really hangs out to do this, & I cannot see any harm in it ...Jontay's bowl is always empty, but Loki still likes to lick around it. So no issues with food, apart from Loki gobbling down his own treats & then whirling around to try & get Jontay's, which I don't allow, but I guess this is normal pup behaviour & he is getting much better now. ...
i think you are handling the feeding for them well.


A couple of weeks ago, she taught us how to place the puppy's bowl of food on the floor at meal times, but then block him from getting to the bowl by moving around it, as he moves around to get at his food. She says the puppy must learn that he can only have his food when we invite it to do so. Also told us to take the bowl away from the puppy as he was eating his meal, then make him sit until we were ready to give it back. I really could not see why I needed to do this, so I have not been doing it. Should I be doing it?
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS TO YOUR PUPPY. All you are teaching him is that you are a threat to his food and you could be creating food aggression. You may not, but why run the risk?

Instead, set his bowl down empty, drop a few pieces in for him to eat, when he looks up at you drop a few more pieces in the bowl. This will show him that you near his bowl means he gets food - whereas the other way shows him to take his food away!

You can also give him his bowl of food, then walk by and drop bites of really good treats, do it often and he will eventually look forward to you approaching his bowl and look for goodies from you when you do.

Don't be a threat to his food source and he will not learn he has to defend it.
 
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#8 ·
And I think you should enjoy your puppy, if you want to play with him or talk to him then do! I can see a purpose for being clear with only commands during training, but the rest of the time have fun with your baby!
 
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#9 ·
" I feed Loki in the kitchen with our papillon walking about, & the papillon will often go up & nose around Loki's bowl while Loki is eating, & he does not appear bothered"

I wouldn't like it if while I was eating my food someone was putting their hands or mouth near my plate. It is rude. It could lead to Loki acting out down the road. Just as you give your papillon the freedom of eating in peace you should do the same for Loki.

"Also told us to take the bowl away from the puppy as he was eating his meal, then make him sit until we were ready to give it back. I really could not see why I needed to do this, so I have not been doing it. Should I be doing it?"

I would not do this. Again, over time it could set Loki up to feel threatened and actually possibly cause food guarding. Each dog is an individual and even at different times in their emotional growth something like this could trigger the instinct to protect their food.

Instead, I would drop really good things into the bowl periodically while Loki eats. Even dogs that are not protective can bennefit by some hand feeding with training. So from time to time I would set aside a little of the kibble and use it as a training session and ask for behavior cues and reward by hand.

"However, she tells people off (me included) for talking to their pups/dogs ....she calls anything other than giving direct commands, 'white noise' & says puppies/dogs only need to be talked to when giving a command, otherwise it just confuses them."

I have heard of this and the therary behind it is if you are always chattering the dog doesn't know when it needs to respond or not.

As long as you are clear and consistent when training I wouldn't see talking to your dog as a problem. Talking and praising a dog can and does build on your relationship. I was at a Denise Fenzi Semminar recently and she suggested lots of upbeat praise and chatter while working the dog. :) Both the handlers and the dogs seemed to be having a blast.
 
#10 ·
You've received great input here, I hope it makes your feel better. It's hard when your trainer tells you something that you know in your heart can't really be right. I think you're smart to follow your common sense ;)

p.s. and please take the food advice seriously, what's been posted here is very good.
 
#11 ·
I say relax and enjoy your puppy. Your trainer sounds rather draconian. The vast majority of Goldens don't need this kind of rigid lifestyle. My ideal relationship with my dogs is as best buddies where I am always nattering away at them. It is very likely white noise to them, and they pay as much attention as they want to. However, they know when I am giving them a command and they hop to since obeying a command is likely to lead to a treat.
 
#12 ·
It sounds like you've gotten great advice - from what I've read your trainer does have some good ideas but some others that aren't maybe the most useful for training. The ideas of "alpha" dog and training off of a dog's wolf ancestry are hot topics here at the forum.

As others have said, you don't need to "guard" the food to ensure puppy sees you as a food bringer. I did what Charliethree recommends - teaching a dog a sit-stay when you're getting their food ready. Depending on the day I make my dog hold the sit for different amounts of time so it stays interesting.

As for licking the bowl, I take my bowls and put them up after the dogs are done. I did this when Buddy was a pup to teach him feeding times and now it's just a part of the routine.

The "dog plays when I want/I leave the house first", I think there's a good idea behind that stuff but again with alternative training you can get the same effect. When leaving the house, the idea is you leave first so you are seen as the leader and the dog will listen to you when on a walk because you are established as in charge. But if your dog learns a good heel or learns to sit-stay at the door when it's time for a walk, that would achieve the same end goal of dog not pulling you out the door.

Same with play - dog plays when you want because you are in charge and you control their fun. I think this can be fixed, though, if you have set playtimes/training times built in during the day. If you already play with your dog three or four times a day then they shouldn't really be begging for playtime every second.

The white noise stuff, I think the point your trainer may be trying to make is not to overuse command words?

Have fun with Loki though, it sounds like you two are benefiting from training :)
 
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