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Understanding Pedigrees

17K views 77 replies 21 participants last post by  sterregold 
#1 ·
I would like to learn more about how to read Pedigrees and what the information means; how to find out background information that is connected to pedigrees/lines. What does it mean when a breeder says "I know my Lines". What is a "Line"? How and where do I turn to learn about what is in a "Line"?

This interest was spurred on by a recent conversation I had with a Breed Judge at the Dallas Specialty. She said, "Know your dog's pedigree, and understand what is in that pedigree". I don't plan to breed, but I still would love to learn about it.

I invite those on this forum who are knowledgeable about pedigrees to use my own golden-girl's pedigree as a source for teaching me how to read pedigrees and learn about "lines". Bella is from conformation lines, but she herself is a beloved pet.

I understand what line-breeding, in-breeding, and outcrosses are. I understand about titles. I understand COI's. I understand hip, eye, heart clearances. I understand longevity. I understand how to read k9data. com, as well as OFA.com. It's the stuff that isn't always posted on open resources that are in "lines" that is the hard part.

Also, what does it mean when someone talks about "type", or "breeding type to type"?

I look forward to hearing from anyone up to taking on this task! :)

Five generation pedigree: Bumble B My Valentine Shenanigans CGC CCA RN
 
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#9 ·
I offered to use my own girl's pedigree for teaching, thinking others may not want to use their own. It just now popped into my head that my girl's pedigree isn't "mine", if you know what I mean. I hadn't thought of the breeders that make up my girl's pedigree, who could potentially be upset if someone pointed out something flawed ~ in an open forum. Oops. :eek:

I do have some wonderful golden breeders here in town, so I will also ask if any of them could spend a bit of time with me. I figured if I could learn off of my girl's pedigree, it would translate to all pedigrees....well, the basics anyway, not the specifics.
 
#3 · (Edited)
We have fewer distinct bloodlines now than we used to when there were large breeding kennels, as there were 30+ years ago. Then you could very often look at a Golden, and know whose breeding was behind it, as each of the influential kennels had quite a distinct "look" or phenotype. There is still a bit of that around, but I find more and more breeders now do not have that look that is distinctively theirs. Your girl has a lot of Asterling in her pedigree's foundation (note that when you look at her COI from 10 to 12 generations there is a notable rise in COI because of the concentration of those Asterling dogs). Aruba really was fundamental to the Asterling breeding program, and she was quite a distinctive bitch in looks, and that carried through in the phenotype you saw from them. Gold Rush, Faera, Rush Hill, and Malagold all also have quite distinctive phenotypes, while still being possessing general breed type. In Canada you would see this with Kyon, in England with Stanroph, in Scandinavia with Dewmist, and so on. If you go through k9data or standfastdata or the GRCA yearbook or the UK GRC yearbooks and look at pictures of dogs from each of these kennels you will start to note common features and characteristics shared by dogs coming from each breeding program (and I am speaking less of colour and more like things such as angulation, head characteristics [muzzle, eyes, ear shape, earset], and outline, and those sorts of fundamental physical aspects).

Often this sort of distinctive style comes from quite intensive use of linebreeding to set type, and also to only using phenotypically similar dogs when outcrossing. Saying type-to-type in describing a breeding, can really mean two things: genotype and phenotype. Most people use the phrase when referring to a phenotype-to-phenotype breeding, and use the term linebreeding when doing a genotype-to-genotype breeding.

Some breeders are fanatically opposed to any linebreeding, despite it being the tool by which overall breed type was set. Essentially, without it, we would not have a breed. Some of the less educated anti-linebreeders will only do a breeding if it is low COI and without any shared ancestors in the first five generations, but make their selections based only on the paper and not on the dogs themselves. A better outcross is done to avoid multiplying the impact of a dog who carries with it health issues or temperament problems or structural issues, but uses a sire and dam who resemble one another physically, so while the pedigrees of the dogs in the breeding may be diverse compared to one another there will still be physical predictability in the offspring. When you do this, you are often doing it to build more genetic options into your breeding program. I have done these sorts of breedings, and like them. I did it with my Trey X Breeze litter, and what I got from it was part of my rationale in going to Trooper(who is a Trey grandson) for her last litter. As a young dog, Trooper looked exactly like Breeze's Trey son, Baron. So even though the pedigree is more open, I do not expect surprises in terms of structure and physical characteristics, and I am looking to bring in some of the wonderful working attitude he has been proven to produce when bred to girls with a pedigree similar to Breeze's.

As to knowing what is in the lines presnt in your dog's pedigree, it comes down to knowing the strengths and dangers lurking in the pedigree (which often people are reluctant to share unless they really get to know you and are sure you are committed to the breed, and will not go on a witch hunt--some breeders have really been burned and so are cautious--but there are no perfect dogs, remember--there are issue present in EVERY pedigree) So, as a for instance, with Breeze's daughter Bonnie from the Trey litter, I will not linebreed on what is behind Trey on the sire line, as undershot and wry bites are a known issue there with a certain dog--I would not multiple him in a breeding I did with her. But there are other dogs in that pedigree, I would gladly double up on to bring forward.

If you are trying to correct a structural issue, a line breeding on a dog who was strong in that feature and known to be prepotent in throwing it will be more effective. An outcross breeding is not going to be as effective in correcting a structural issue, because there will not be the shared genes for the strong expression of that trait. An exception to this can be the case where one of the pairing is heavily linebred on a dog prepotent for the trait (physical or performance), and the other has a very open pedigree--you can see this in the Firemark breedings of Pony who had a very low COI and the pups from each of her litters very much favour their sires. Then to capitalize on that, one would have to breed back into the pedigree from which the trait came--which if you look at Firemark breedings for performance, is what Melanie has done.

Many people will also say that it is really only the first 5 generations that matter, as the % of contribution of each dog decreases so much the further you get back in the pedigree. However, I think it is important to look at those extended pedigrees and run influence tables, as backmassing can make a dog you do not immediately see very influential in your pedigree. There are some very influential dogs in our pedigrees whose descendents have been bred together, who were the product of breeding of litter sisters to the same stud dog, or brother stud dogs etc.

It is really quite fascinating, and takes a long time to dig into at a deeper level (which is one of the reasons I was in the breed 12 years before I ever bred a litter!)
 
#4 ·
FWIW, and I'm in a similar position as you in being pretty new and wanting to satisfy my thirst for knowledge, a lot of what I've learned about my own girlie's pedigree has arisen from informal hanging out with other golden breeders, show people, and performance people, often when there is food and tasty beverages involved :) My own quest for knowledge has been driven by an excellent mentor who has been willing to introduce me to people, get me plugged in, and teach me what questions to ask. People who are a part of my local network all know each other well, often through relationships built over 30 years. My husband is a woodworker, which is another trade that requires the right network and a time of apprenticeship. I've found the world of goldens to be very similar in a lot of ways. Getting a foot in the door can be hard if you don't have someone to push you through, but once you're in, the experienced folks LOVE to share what they know. After all, the future of the breed is at stake, and it hinges upon this transfer of knowledge that in many cases is not written down.
 
#5 ·
Sterregold--

You've helped me learn so very much about things from the breeder's eyes. I find all of this fascinating.

I think I could be potentially interested in breeding someday, but that is years down the road for me as I have so much to learn.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge in the meantime, and feeding that curiosity for me!
 
#6 ·
A great book to get into some of the theory is Carmen Battaglia's Breeding Better Dogs. It really focuses on conformation breeding, but the use of his stick dogs to track physical traits can also be applied to performance traits as well. Another great learning source is Carla Orlandi, who is a Basset breeder. She puts on excellent seminars on structure and breeding programs. A great book to read on the development of a line is Snakefoot: The Making of a Champion which is about the development of the Elhew Pointers.
And if you can handle reading scientific journals there is a tonne of research on farm livestock where there is a definite financial incentive to do the research. There is huge money in the dairy industry, and as a result a lot of time is spent on pedigree and production research ( I grew up in the cattle breeding industry which is part of why I am such a pedigree and research wonk). Do a search on "pedigree cattle" in Google Scholar and you will get some fascinating articles that track the heritability of certain traits, like milk production.
 
#8 ·
#10 ·
Shelly, an amazing, informative post. Thanks so much.
Regarding the Faera dogs, people have often come up to me at breed shows and asked me if Tito is a Faera golden. They do have a unique style, and people who have been around goldens for a long time seem to recognize them. At one show I was just tickled beyond words when I met Rhonda Hovan and she asked me if he was "in the family".
He does have a lot of Faera dogs on both sides of his pedigree, including both Starlight and Trio.
 
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#29 ·
#12 ·
I think our breed is very lucky to have www.k9data.com Without it we wouldn't be able to have a great conversation on this issue. I thank everyone that has taken the time to enter all this information and photographs into the database over the years. For a database that didn't exist before the internet, it's amazing to me how far it has come to record everything it holds.

I have a trainer that won't look at a golden for training until she sees the pedigree on k9data. It helps her know the dog's "type" before the dog walks in the door. It's just such a helpful database on so many different levels.
 
#13 ·
Sterregold:

Thanks for posting that last article--an excellent read.

Couple of questions about % blood--

As I understand it, values are assigned for each relationship, ie 25% for grandparent, 12.5% for great grand, then 6.25% and so on and so forth. Are the totals strictly cumulative? What if the ancestor in question is in both sire and dam's lines? Would it still be cumulative?

Also, typically how far back do you read a pedigree when planning a breeding? Back to the foundation dogs? In the example he gives in the article he takes it back 27 gens.

Lastly, I would imagine there is still a quotient of uncertainty in the results. With your years of experience coupled with pedigree analysis, how certain are you of your results with a new, unique breeding?
 
#15 ·
It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.]

It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.

You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.
 
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#14 ·
I will say I remember your dog's great-great-etc grandma CH Asterling's Leaps N Bounds "Morgan." I had just joined MFGRC and can remember taking my puppy to a match. Robin Donahey at the time lived in my area and was always very nice, she went to the same obedience class I did. Anyways "Morgan" was a pretty young puppy at the match and was really really gorgeous. I will always remember that dog. She was very heavily inbred (James bred to his mother) but lived to a ripe old age.

"Knowing your pedigree" ---- wow that is hard, and you won't ever really know everything unless you've owned the dam's side for generations. I am fortunate to know all of Fisher's siblings and many of their offspring, and of course his sire very well, his uncle, a few others. Beyond that I don't know any more than the average person.

When I got my first golden I constructed this huge pedigree for him, based on books and GRNews magazines, this was waaaaaaay before K9data. I got it out to about 10 generations with very few holes. He was all just asterling on one side and Gold Rush on the other, of course, so easy to track. Now all of those same dogs are in everyone's pedigrees except so far back they're off the 5 gen pedigree page on k9data.

The only thing that I have reservations on "knowing" all this stuff -- how much influence does a dog 5 generations back have? Probably very little. I think you may gain more knowledge of what your dog likely will be or will produce by looking at MANY dogs in CLOSER generations. That is a lot easier to research anyhow. How many grandparents, great-aunts/uncles, cousins, aunts & uncles, siblings, half siblings, etc can you know? What are their unusual characteristics?
 
#16 ·
The only thing that I have reservations on "knowing" all this stuff -- how much influence does a dog 5 generations back have? Probably very little. I think you may gain more knowledge of what your dog likely will be or will produce by looking at MANY dogs in CLOSER generations. That is a lot easier to research anyhow. How many grandparents, great-aunts/uncles, cousins, aunts & uncles, siblings, half siblings, etc can you know? What are their unusual characteristics?
I agree, although in reviewing genetic influence tables you realize how much a dog that is many generations back can influence a pedigree. For example, in my Kira's pedigree there is a dog who doesn't appear until the 8th generation whose genetic influence is just slighly lower than her grand-sires and grand-dams. It can be a good thing if you like the dog and what the dog produced, or a bad thing if there are characteristics you want to avoid. All of it will be considered if she is ever bred down the road, obviously, but it's really eye opening to see the genetic influence tables.
 
#22 ·
The nice part about K9data is not just looking at the COI, but also at the offspring list of those dogs you are interested from the past. Here's the offspring list of Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure: Offspring of Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS
It's an amazing list of dogs with wonderful accomplishments. K9data has done such a great service for us keeping all this data for easy access. You can also look at siblings too.
 
#24 ·
Yes! Thanks to breeders like Marge, and Carole, and Karin who have either bred to nice UK and European dogs, or imported them, I have been able to incorporate some really lovely dogs. I like a well-made dog that wants to hunt, and these sort of combinations seem to bring that out for me.
 
#26 ·
So looking at Maxwell's pedigree: Five generation pedigree: Rocket x Chloe

I'm seeing heavy influence by Rush Hill dogs, especially Rush Hill's Haagen-Daz. And lots of Summit dogs, especially Summit's Goldstorm Moving Picture.

Can anyone with more experience tell me about these breeders and dogs in particular? Feel free PM me if you feel like you don't want to post in the open forum.
 
#31 ·
Quar, Bainin, Whirly, Expo, Jake, Yogi, Sabre are all common in a lot of versatile pedigrees (and mostly connected!) One who I think does not get mentioned as much as some is Strad (Jazzmin Pebwin's Xtravaganz)--he is my Win's grandfather, and also behind most of the Morningstar Goldens. Colabaugh has also produced some very good looking, good working dogs. Buzz is another neat dog (Honeybee's Swarm Warning).
 
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#28 ·
Maxwell has a pedigree very similar to my Copley on his dad's side. Because both Bistro and Mojo passed away on the younger side, it is nice to see Hobo there who lived a very long healthy life. I am not sure about Maxwell's mom's side, as those are less familiar lines to me. I think of the Summit dogs as having good longevity.
 
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#37 ·
Soooooo.....(LOL), getting back to my original post. I would like to understand what is meant by "lines" or what is meant when a breeder says "I know my lines", etc. This confuses me. Using drofen's Maxwell puppy's pedigree that was offered up in a post, I wrote down all the kennel names used in his 5-generation pedigree:

Goldenwind, Mariner, Gracious Golds, JBG, Maplegrove, Summit, Trouchstone, Treasure, Pebwin, Cynazar, Birnamwoods, Chuckanut, Braemal, Wind Dance, Twin Beau-D, Goodtime, Rush Hill, Faragold, Beacon Hill, Golden Pine, Goldstorm, Sheffield-Ducat, Sunshine Hill, Edgecombe, Gemstar, Sassafras, Cherrybrook, Rockhill.

These are all "lines"?? If so, how is it possible for anyone to know ALL these "Lines" in a dog's pedigree? I think I must be not understanding pedigrees.

Feel free to go back and use my girl's pedigree to teach me what "lines" are....not what each dog or kennel was like, just what a line is. Thanks!
 
#38 ·
I think what they mean is they know the pedigree behind their dogs and know what is typical of that pedigree. For instance if they are typically late bloomers, or don't combine well with another line, etc. Certainly if a breeding is an outcross that predictability would be less apparent. But that (from my understanding) is why you try to breed phenotypically similar dogs when outcrossing.


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#39 ·
So, in Bella's pedigree she has the following kennel names:

Eagle Ridge
Gold-Rush
Rush Hill
Sunbeam
Misty Ridge
Amberwood
Goldenbear
Pelcorp
Treasure
Casadeloro
Bearhill
Twin Beau-D
Amberwood
Amberac
Highmark
Birnam Woods
Asterling
Lovejoy
Keane
Tuxedo
Aspenglo
Sunshine Hill
Heelmark
Goldentown
Westben

That is 24 different kennel names in Bella's pedigree. Are you saying a breeder who claims to know my girl's lines (just an example) would know all 24 of them? Each kennel name is a "Line"?
 
#40 ·
So, in Bella's pedigree she has the following kennel names:

Eagle Ridge
Gold-Rush
Rush Hill
Sunbeam
Misty Ridge
Amberwood
Goldenbear
Pelcorp
Treasure
Casadeloro
Bearhill
Twin Beau-D
Amberwood
Amberac
Highmark
Birnam Woods
Asterling
Lovejoy
Keane
Tuxedo
Aspenglo
Sunshine Hill
Heelmark
Goldentown
Westben

That is 24 different kennel names in Bella's pedigree. Are you saying a breeder who claims to know my girl's lines (just an example) would know all 24 of them? Each kennel name is a "Line"?
From what I understand, there are certain highly influential dogs that create distinct "lines" identifiable by certain traits--coat, head, ability etc.

I think some of the confusion comes from being somewhat of an outsider still. I noted in one of my posts above I think, that really to understand what a pedigree really means, we have to have insider knowledge of which dogs are influential, which kennels have taken breeding stock from those "lines" to continue them. I just don't know enough of the lay of the land.

For example, with people: If someone is new to the country, maybe they wouldn't recognize that the Kennedy's are one of the big name families in the US, or Rockefeller, etc. Make sense?
 
#41 ·
No, that's not what I mean. I sincerely doubt that all 24 of those pedigrees contribute heavily into Bella's pedigree. There are probably a couple of them that have a higher genetic influence, and it would be particular dogs usually from each kennel, not every dog that happens to have that kennel name in front of it. So the breeder who "knows the line" would know how the pedigrees combine and what may compliment Bella's pedigree based on the dogs and lines in the pedigree.

For example, I am interested to see how Smooch's half-sister's breeding to a particular dog turns out if it is done later this year. I am also interested to see the results of a breeding of Kira's paternal aunt to a dog I am interested in using with her down the road. Another cousin of Kira's (on her dam's side) will be bred to him as well. I want to see how the pedigrees combine and if they end up being successful breedings, in terms of improving what I would like to eventually improve on each of my girls down the road. Kira's pedigree is a little unique, in that, her dam was tightly line-bred, but Kira is more of an outcross. So I am especially interested to see how each side of her pedigree combines with the dog I am interested in, in hopes there will not be any huge surprises if she is bred to him. Her "line" is not as predictable because she is more of an outcross, although she very much resembles her dam, physically. She also has a lot of traits from her sire's side of the pedigree as well.

I think understanding the genetic influence of dogs in a pedigree may help you. I know it really helped me understand pedigrees more once I was able to look at a couple. Linda Bell runs tables (it's not very expensive) if you contact her maybe she could run one on Bella.
 
#43 ·
Genetic tables!!! That's it! How much genetic influence there is and by what dog...or what lines. Excellent! Now that makes total sense! From there, one could then study what attributes those dogs had that might influence my girl. yeah!!! I knew if I stuck in there and kept pushing until I felt I got an answer that made sense, I would be rewarded. hahaha! Being so new to this all, it is quite confusing. There is so much more than just looking at a pedigree on paper. Do breeders typically go through all this when deciding to breed? I don't plan to breed Bella, but I'm going through this as an exercise to learn what it's like. If I were ever to breed some other dog down the road, I think it's so much more than clearances, and longevity, etc, and I'd personally want to do lots and lots of homework. Wow! So much to figure out before you even think about breeding!!
 
#42 ·
A line possesses more of the distinctive characteristics that make it stand out--so not every kennel has a line yet (or in some cases ever). There are a lot of newer kennels who are essentially building on what some of those influential kennels have done, and as a result the dogs retain a look that is very like that line which is their foundation. And you do not get a true line of your own unless you have a set goal and vision in mind that you are breeding towards. I would not for instance, claim to have a line of my own at this point. I am only two generations into my own breeding and still moving towards my goals. But there are lines--Trowsnest, Kyon, Belvedere, and further back, Holway, Yeo--which are strongly developed lines, and the foundation of what I am working on. So I do not have a line myself per se at this point, but these are the lines I use and need to know in my breeding.
 
#45 ·
Ok, now this makes sense too. So, there are probably a few influential lines in Bella's pedigree (simply using her as an example), and not ALL the kennels are (key word) 'established' lines bred over time in a very planned and executed breeding program. Hmmm....

Could one say that because there are so many other non-established lines, say in Bella's pedigree, that the established lines have been diluted...and possible quite diluted, to the point she doesn't really have any line left? She's a mish-mash versus having any true line? (Please....I hope no one takes offense to this verbiage ~ I just lack knowledge to use any other. I don't want to look like I am picking on my own girl either... I love her to the moon and back, but she is my little 'case study') :eek:
 
#49 ·
I see. Now I can understand more clearly what the breeder/judge at our last specialty was trying to tell me. She was emphasizing pedigree, pedigree, pedigree; looking at how the pedigrees go together, versus looking at the "stud dog de jour" and considering him just because you think he might correct this or that in your bitch, and he's popular. I'm sure she meant so much more, but I have to break it down into pieces to understand.
 
#55 ·
That is precisely what that judge was getting at.
 
#50 ·
Thanks ladies, for hanging in there with me. I think I am just beginning to understand, and I really appreciate you sticking in there until I did begin to understand. I can guarantee I will have many, many more questions. Even if I never breed, I still love to learn!
 
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