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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
well first of all, nutrition, they get more benefits from those as an example, second they can digest them fully in their natural form, corn or wheat, the extent they can digest is the extent they are processed, for corn aparently they can digest about 91% of the usual grind in kibble (although depending on the brand it can vary from 82% - 98%). in addition, corn and wheat are the least nutritious of any of the other carbohydrates such as rice, barley, and potato. Naturally a dog (and im not talking wolves here) would not be consuming ANY of these carbohydrates, nor could they digest them, and even ground it takes increased effort to digest them. and although the allergy concern is way over blown it still plays an unnessesary risk. Even though you can make the point that corn does contain some protein, antioxidants, and fatty acids, there are many better, more abundant, more digestable potential sources
Again, you say that corn and wheat are "the least nutritious." What is your measurement? What are the units? What makes you think a potato is "more nutritious" than an ear of corn?

And whether a dog can digest something in its natural form is sort of immaterial, as we're not feeding things in their natural form. A dog can't open a coconut, but people still give them coconut oil. The question is whether the ground potato in a dog food is somehow more biologically appropriate than the ground corn, and you've never produced any evidence or even any units of measurement that would indicate that.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dwiley View Post
Amylase is certainly not the only enzyme that breaks down carbohydrates, but it is the one that catalyzes the breakdown of polysaccharides into monosaccharides, disaccharides - which can then be broken down into glucose molecules. Monosaccharides are broken down into glucose, galactose, and fructose. Disaccharides are broken down into maltose and lactose. It is only after these polysaccharides are broken down (by amylase) that monosaccharides and disaccharides can be broken down with aid of other digestive enzymes (maltase, sucrase, and lactase). It's been a long time since I took Cell Biology, but this is my understanding. Please, feel free to chime in with the whole story. Sorry if this is too "science-sounding" but there really is no other way to explain it.
First off, I don't mind science sounding stuff. I love science. I don't like it when science sounding language is used but scientific principles are not.

Amylase does catalyze the breakdown of polysaccharides. In humans, there is a brief window in which it happens before the stomach because we produce it in our saliva, but it doesn't—as far as we understand—continue significantly in the low pH of the stomach. It begins again with pancreatic amylase in the small intestine.

Glucose, galactose, and fructose are monosaccharides, and maltose and lactose are disaccharides. So some of what you're saying doesn't make sense.

You're also missing a big player in the realm of starch digestion: hydrolysis. Amylase facilitates the breakdown of complex starches, but the key component is the water of the digestive system. So the amount of an enzyme isn't a simple measurement of an animal's ability to digest a sugar.


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Actually, amylase doesn't function at a low pH. Acidic = low pH.
Yes, you're totally right. I had written "high acidity" and then revised the word "acidity" without changing the adjective. My typo.

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Originally Posted by dwiley View Post
Salivary amylase is very important in chemical digestion and begins the breakdown process in the mouth and esophagus. Additionally, the chewing motion that humans use due to their flat molars (teeth that dogs do not have) mechanically help break up long polysaccharide chains. If dogs do not have salivary amylase, then the food must wait until it reaches the intestines to be exposed to pancreatic amylase. The chemical digestion doesn't start until much later in the digestive process, and also has less time to finish due to the shortened intestinal tract.
Humans do prep their starches pre-stomach with grinding and salivary amylase. That proves that humans are more herbivorous than dogs—not in dispute—but does not prove that dogs are carnivores rather than omnivores.

Certainly, dogs are not as good at an herbivorous diet as people. That's not in dispute either. What I'm disputing are claims that dogs are obligate carnivores or that they somehow cannot access nutrition of plant sources. I'm also disputing that a grain is somehow inferior to a potato.

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Originally Posted by dwiley View Post
Where is this clear evidence you keep referring to? Yes, dogs survive eating foods that have wheat and corn. Explain to me the "lots of nutrition" dogs get from them.
If wheat and corn were "filler" with "no nutritional value" or "low nutritional value," then dogs who ate food consisting mostly of corn or wheat would die. The millions dogs doing fine on such foods disprove those claims. I think dogs do better when the corn and wheat don't provide the vast majority of their calories, and I do think dogs need lots of meat in their diets. I'm just not buying these claims that an appropriate amount of of corn or wheat is just "filler" and it's somehow incompatible with a dog's biology. I also dispute the idea that corn or wheat is somehow less "nutritious" than a potato.

Mammals thrive on a wide range of nutrients. A dog on the right proportion of meat and corn is probably better off than a dog who's on pure meat. In fact, if a dog were fed only muscle meat, he would eventually die from malnutrition.

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I beg to differ. My dogs were fed prey-model raw for years and always got an absolute glowing bill of health from the vet. Their bloodwork was always perfect, their coats were soft and shiny, their poop was a perfect consistency, and they never struggled with eye gunk, ear infections, or any kind of skin allergy. Nobody makes all meat kibble because it would be outrageously expensive to produce...
My understanding of even prey-model diets is that they are typically supplemented. All the recipes I've ever seen online call for things like flax seed, yams, brewer's yeast, pumpkin, and vitamin supplements. Perhaps you simply fed carcasses, but I don't know of any people whose dogs thrive on just meat, bone, and organs.

And, fyi, my dogs do not struggle with eye gunk, ear infections, or skin allergies. And coats get shiny when you give dogs fat. Whether it's animal fat or vegetable fat is largely irrelevant. In fact, that's the first thing I'd often suggest for somebody with an itchy dog: more fat.

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Originally Posted by dwiley View Post
I'm curious to know what food you feed - as I'm sure the majority of your food is not corn and wheat. Unless you are only feeding them corn and wheat, the argument that your dogs are thriving on them is invalid. More than likely, there is a considerable amount of animal protein that contributes to the health of your dogs.
Eukanuba PP 30/20. It's certainly not "mostly" corn and wheat, but it has substantial amounts of corn, rice, and sorghum (ingredients 3, 4, and 5) in it. If they had "no" or "low" nutritional value, it would be hard to see how my dogs could be thriving.

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Originally Posted by dwiley View Post
I don't recall saying anywhere in my post that I was feeding my dogs ALL meat and no corn or wheat. Also, I'm pretty sure pumpkins, apples, and spinach aren't grains...
But your points have repeatedly been that dogs are carnivores and not omnivores. So it's weird to make that argument and then to turn around and feed your dogs an omnivore's diet. And pumpkins, apples, potatoes, and spinach aren't grains, but you haven't made a single argument about the difference between root vegetables, fruits, leaf vegetables, gourds, and grains. Your points have all been about how dogs can't digest starches properly. So why feed your dogs so much vegetable matter?

I assume it's because the dogs do great on it! An appropriate proportion of vegetable matter isn't just acceptable, it's good! Dogs have been co-evolving with people for at least ten millennia. They've adapted somewhat to our diets in that time period, since the proto-dogs who could would be able to reproduce better. Their needs aren't identical to ours, but neither are they identical to wolves'.

Mammalian evolution has shown, in independent branches, that members of the carnivora order adapt quickly to omnivorous diets—and even once or twice in the tree, they've gone full herbivore like the Giant Panda did.

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Originally Posted by dwiley View Post
Again, I stated that dogs thrive on a diet that consists primarily of protein. I also recall stating that it's the owner's prerogative to feed what they choose. My post was to show that there IS scientific evidence to support that wheat and corn is less easily digested by dogs, and therefore has a lower (relative) nutritional value, compared to animal protein.
The evidence you posted was about starch, not about grains. Most of the nutrition in a potato is locked away as starch, just as it is in corn or wheat. Apples have more simple sugars, but I honestly don't think that's a selling point for their use in dog foods. For energy and health, you want lots of your carbs locked away in polysaccharide chains, because they break down over the course of hours instead of minutes, so you get more sustained energy. Why wouldn't that apply at least somewhat to dogs?

Nobody is arguing against the idea that dogs should be fed mostly meat. The argument here is against statements that certain ingredients have "low" or "no" nutritional value. If a potato or an apple is a good ingredient, so is an ear of corn.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:13 AM
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Thats bull, I fed 2 large breed dogs, prey model raw, and they lived to 16 (my golden retriever) and 18 (170 lb tibetan mastiff) completely health problem free, clean vet bills every time, only issues were an ear infection, some allergies at an early age, and a couple of join issues from old age. Passed in their sleep. Not only were they completely health issue free but they were 2 BIG dogs, that lived Extremely long, with very few health issues, I have chosen to feed tuco some fruits and veggies for the simple reason, that i dont have the money for the grassfed meats, nor the whole meats like i did with my old dogs. There are 1 or 2 small all meat kibbles, but the main reason there are so few is because they are significantly more expensive, theres no point making a more expensive kibble when you can add some veggies and fruit and keep its nutritional value
You fed prey model with no supplements for 18 years?
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:10 AM
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You fed prey model with no supplements for 18 years?
I fed prey model raw for 2 years with no supplements he was actually really healthy on raw and his blood work came back fine. Now, had I continue im not sure the result but from what I understood is they get their nutrients from the bones, meat and organs they are fed. But I could be wrong.

Still not sure what I am doing though im leaning more towards Pro plan
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:14 AM
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I fed prey model raw for 2 years with no supplements he was actually really healthy on raw and his blood work came back fine. Now, had I continue im not sure the result but from what I understood is they get their nutrients from the bones, meat and organs they are fed. But I could be wrong.

Still not sure what I am doing though im leaning more towards Pro plan
That's cool. I wasn't aware people were successfully feeding prey model raw with just animal parts and no vegetable matter or vitamins added.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:20 AM
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That's cool. I wasn't aware people were successfully feeding prey model raw with just animal parts and no vegetable matter or vitamins added.
I never added anything anyway, was receiving help from a couple people and research and stuff. I was very picky and made sure everything was being done right and the right proportions. The only reason he was taken off raw was he got a horrible bout of the runs my vet told me it was the diet causing it (which is generally the vets answer when they find out someone is feeding raw) so I got nervous and took him off. As soon as he was taken off the infections started and it just got ugly from there. But I just cant feed raw again, to nervous to especially with his lowered immune system.

I will admit I have seriously thought about it several times but each time I "chicken out" because I remember what happened with his gut and pooping out bone and stuff. I never added veggies but when I would eat an apple, carrot, orange etc I would give him a little sliver...still do that. He would do a back flip 80 times for a piece of my apple
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:52 AM
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Interesting information about corn and other grain based ingredients in dog food.

The Truth About Corn in Dog Food

I just see some facts here,,,,no AGENDA.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:34 AM
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I didn't pay to read the whole study information but I thought this was interesting to put here after reading some of the posts.


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture11837.html
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Last edited by solinvictus; 01-24-2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: The first link I put up didn't work. It is working now.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 11:40 AM
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I didn't pay to read the whole study information but I thought this was interesting to put here after reading some of the posts.
The genomic signature of dog domestication reveals adaptation to a starch-rich diet : Nature : Nature Publishing Group
Your link didn't work for me, but this one does.

And that's a very cool demonstration of the evolution of dog digestion. Here's my favorite quote from the abstract:
Quote:
Ten genes with key roles in starch digestion and fat metabolism also show signals of selection. We identify candidate mutations in key genes and provide functional support for an increased starch digestion in dogs relative to wolves. Our results indicate that novel adaptations allowing the early ancestors of modern dogs to thrive on a diet rich in starch, relative to the carnivorous diet of wolves, constituted a crucial step in the early domestication of dogs.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by A1Malinois View Post
Precise and Nutrisource are not available to me here. I cannot get Grain inclusive Annamaet here anymore and hes already on 2 cups of the Salcha and barely maintaining his weight on that.
That's right, I forget you are in Canada. I recall that Nutram and Horizon Complete weren't avail to you either but that Petsmart sold foods are?
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