Force to Pile aka FTP

As we head into spring we begin to focus on tuning up our now-loose gundogs, and continue Basics on those that halted FF progression last Fall. Force to Pile is where all aspects of basic obedience are assembled together with the elements of force fetch. It might be useful to have a discussion of how you approach FTP.

So, how do you approach and execute FTP? What are your goals for it? How far do you usually lengthen the distance to the pile? What are your forcing procedures; from side, en route, from remote sit, etc.?

EvanG

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I am in this place with Bonnie. We had finished 3HC, FTP, and TT last year, and were getting set to move into 3LP when hunting season started...

Rather than jumping right back in at 3LP once the craziness of in-season girls is complete (but before my puppies get here!), I think I may step back and review FTP and TT with her before proceeding.

I teach FTP on the soccer field across from my house (how handy of the school board to put it there for me). I start by identifying the pile, probably about 15-20 feet back--a comfortable toss. I gradually extend the distance on this field back to 20-25 yards. By the end of it I want to dogs to be showing focus on the destination when sitting at my side, and to leave with purpose and momentum when sent. I force from my side, remote and en route, but the vast majority of sends are freebies as pressure-pressure-pressure tends to wear down my dog's attitudes.So the balance I have to watch for is using enough pressure to reinforce the requirement to go, without wearing down the dog's attitude.

Once they are hammering out to the pile on the soccer field, I move it to the field I use for TT. I teach the back pile again and reinforce it at FTP distances ( i like that my FTP baseline corresponds to the far intersection so it builds in casting back from that intersection for later in the process), and then build the line back to full TT distance, also doing a remotes from the near intersection, before I add in a stop and cast en-route to proceed with the TT lessons.

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"Breeze" HR Trowsnest Sterre Autumn Breeze Can. SH WCX, Am. MH CCA
"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
"Butch" Sterre Badlands Outlaw JH WC (Ch ptd), Am JH
"Bonnie" Sterre Texas Bluebonnet JH WCI, Am JH
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"Chrissy" Halfmoon Embellishment (Cavalier)
"Juniper" Amberwood Northern Exposure CD RNCL (Apr15 2002-Feb12 2013)
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I hope you who are competing with your dogs - HT or FT - are not glossing over this important part of training. I believe that if you don't do a thorough job of FTP that you have not finished force fetch.

EvanG

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What are the possible consequences of not forcing to pile?

Great question! There are several important consequences, and they start with a trainer heaping expectations of a finished retrieve on a dog that hasn't been trained to perform one. FTP assembles vital parts into a finished product; the fully-trained retrieve. Many a trainer has failed their dog by just giving them a hodge-podge of skills, and then requiring them to perform as if the process were complete.

The fully trained retrieve is efficient and reliable. It is also uniform; the same each time; the dog goes, fetches the first retrieve object he comes to, instantly recalls to the handler, finishes as directed, and delivers on command - all with style. That is because FTP training works dynamically to produce exactly that.

In addition, a dog thoroughly trained through FTP is also finessed in his pressure conditioning so distractions don't divert him, or keep him from finishing the task he was sent to perform.

Pretty important, don't you think?

EvanG

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Yes, indeed, FTP is an extension of FF; it strengthens the compulsion to make the retrieve. [I may not, however, consider it to the where all aspects of basic obedience are put together with FF, although I suppose it could depend on how one defines basic obedience. But that's not the point of this thread.]

Sterregold's approach is solid, particularly the limited number of stimulus events. Too many nicks/burns will increase the likelihood of developing a bad attitude about retrieving (lose momentum) and of flaring (which is a P.I.T.A. to deal with ... it can become a lifelong issue for some dogs).

And this is an opportune time to see how your dog is reacting to the number of sends, the number of nicks, nick v. burn, the level of the stimuli (this is a biggie) ... is it high enough or is it too high, etc. Said another way, you must pay careful attention to every movement the dog makes ... i.e., you must read the dog.

To the questions:
Distance to pile - far enough to put in two nicks ... around 60 yards is my best guess.
Forcing procedures - I prefer forcing from the side and en route. If I see some hints of flaring, I will force remotely.

Questions:
How do you know that FTP is complete?
Under what circumstances do you revisit FTP once it's completed?

I take mine to 100 yards in small increments. I do this because that pile becomes my Back pile for T work. Me too. I determine that by concurrent sessions in which all its primary functions are uniform and reliable, and by assessing that pressure conditioning is sound. I re-visit FTP all through Basics in land T work & Swim-by. Then, as the dog goes through Transition, pile work continues extensively because many of the drills I run are pile-based. Later on, I return to some of the drills of Transition as maintenance exercises. Many of them are excellent drills to maintain a solid foundation for more advanced skills and skill sets.

EvanG

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"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that. But the really great ones make you feel that you too can become great." ~ Mark Twain


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