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Old 03-27-2011, 05:07 PM
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Regarding COI - is it too high?

Hello all,

I have a question regarding COI's, and while I searched the forum, and I found out that usually one would want a COI of no more than 15, and preferably under 12. But then, I read the article attached to one of the threads and it said that sometimes the COI can be higher, and not a problem if the breeder is linebreeding and is a reputable breeder.

So here is my question: I am planning on buying a puppy from a breeder who has been breeding for 30 years and by all accounts is very good (there are many on this forum who have dogs from the breeder). I looked the sire and dam up on k9data and while the sire's COI is 10 Generation: 12.99%, and 14 Generation: 14.53%. The dam on the other hand has 18.59% and 19.69% respectively. I am wondering if the dam's COI is too high, and whether I should be worried.

I have done a test breeding of my puppy on k9data, but it says to check back in 1 to 2 weeks for the genetic information.

Also, another question I have, is: Is it a problem if the dam's father is the same as the sire's grandfather? (I tried to research this question in relation to linebreeding, but all the answers were somewhat vague.

Any information anyone can give me on these questions would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you so much, and I apologize if this is the wrong area of the forum to post this in, I'm new to all this
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Old 03-27-2011, 05:30 PM
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In this case, what you are interested in is the COI of the litter, not the parents. And whether a COI is "too high" or not-the answer is "it depends." It depends on the dogs in the pedigree, genetic issues there may be in the pedigree, longevity, etc. That's why experience and knowledge of the pedigree is so important when looking at COI and-my preference-genetic influence.

As for doubling up (if the dam's father and sire's grandfather are the only dogs in common) or line-breeding ( if there are other common dogs in the pedigree as well), the answer again is-it depends. If the dog in question died at age 14 and has historically thrown pups who are also long-lived and healthy, with good temperaments, then it could be a very good thing.

I much prefer genetic influence tables to straight COI. I used to be able to run my own but now I have Linda Bell run them for me-she's fast and reasonably priced.

This is a portion of a genetic influence table on a breeding I want to do within the next year or so. In a pedigree which is a total outcross, both parents will have a genetic influence of 50%, grandparents 25%, great-grandparents 12.5 % and so on.:

By: Doolin's Too Much is Barely Enough
Ex: Tahnee's Wild at Heart

Inbreeding Coefficient: 12.8106% based on 19 generations.
2904 different animals found in 15 generations.
Ancestry is 98% known.

50.000% Tahnee's Wild at Heart
( Dam's Side: 1 g1 )
50.000% Doolin's Too Much is Barely Enough
( Sire's Side: 1 g1 )
31.250% CH Tahnee Tupelo Xmas Cordial OS
( Sire's Side: 1 g2 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g4 )
25.000% Jeryco Tahnee Who's That Girl
( Dam's Side: 1 g2 )
25.000% CH BIS BISS Sandpipers Give'M H Harry OS SDHF
( Dam's Side: 1 g2 )
25.000% Sunnyglen Doolin Central Standard
( Sire's Side: 1 g2 )
20.313% CH Tupelo Tahnee Tuff Cookie
( Sire's Side: 1 g3, 1 g6 )
( Dam's Side: 2 g5 )
20.313% CH Carlin's Holiday a Xmas Carol OS
( Sire's Side: 1 g3, 1 g6 )
( Dam's Side: 2 g5 )
16.797% CH BIS BISS Libra Malagold Coriander OS SDHF
( Sire's Side: 1 g4, 1 g5, 1 g7, 1 g8 )
( Dam's Side: 3 g6, 2 g7 )
13.541% CH Misty Morn's Sunset* CD TD OS SDHF
( Sire's Side: 4 g8, 2 g9, 9 g10, 32 g11, 50 g12, 50 g13, 26 g14, 10 g15 )
( Dam's Side: 6 g9, 27 g10, 33 g11, 48 g12, 34 g13, 18 g14, 3 g15 )
13.281% CH Jayba's Tahnee Kahlua n' Cream OD
( Sire's Side: 1 g4, 1 g7 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g5, 2 g6 )
12.500% Tahnee's Material Girl
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
12.500% Am./Can CH BISS Endeavor's Alberta Clipper OS
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
12.500% CH Deja Vu's Air Phare Miles
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
12.500% CH Greatbrook's Scarlet Begonias
( Sire's Side: 1 g3 )
12.500% CH Spicewood's Wind Symphony
( Sire's Side: 1 g3 )
12.500% CH Sandpiper's Egghibitionist OD
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )

I know from past experience that a concentration of 37.5% of my boy Scout gave me some gorgeous dogs, with longevity and health. I am hoping that the concentration of 31.5% will do the same.

Your best bet is to ask the breeder why she did this particular breeding-what does she hope to get? What does she think the strengths and weaknesses of the pedigree are? What can she tell about the dogs who are being doubled up on?
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:33 PM
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Thank you very much for your response! I didn't understand all of it (the tables etc), because numbers really aren't my strong suit, but I think you're saying that it really does depend, and that 37% gave strong puppies in your dog Scout? I guess that gives me a little more comfort about the 19% in the dam.

I did ask the breeder why she chose to breed those two dogs, and she seemed a little defensive, and said "Well, I assume you know the pedigree of both the dogs? And that his dad won at Westminster. That's why I bred them." Which....yes, makes sense...and then I asked "OK, I was just wondering because I know sometimes dogs will be bred to balance out certain traits..." And she basically said no, that they were both good, normal Goldens. I felt like I wouldn't really have known what else to ask, but that I wasn't sure about the answer. Does that make any sense?

So, I guess I shouldn't worry about it for now (in terms of the dam's COI) and wait and see what k9data comes up with about my test breeding?
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:45 PM
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Hmm, interesting response from the breeder. Maybe she felt you wouldn't understand or appreciate the finer points of her reasoning. I can usually point out the strengths in my bitch-front, movement, temperament-as well as things I would like to see improved-head, overall "prettiness", substance-and how the male I picked should help improve those without taking away what she has that is good (ideally, at least!) If I chose an outcross, why I chose an outcross at this point or if I linebred, why I chose to line breed.

I would wait to see what the litter's COI is, although remember, even a "high" one is not an automatic reason to rule a breeding out.

The COI on the litter I posted above is 12.81065, and given the dogs in the pedigree, I am very comfortable with it.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:47 PM
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It's too bad the breeder was so defensive about her choices. Many of the breeders here are great at explaining and helping to educate us that are just learning the basics..... especially about the whys of a litter.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:32 PM
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Hi guys, I am adding to this thread that I started, as I have done the test breeding for Wombat, and have his COI's. I have done more research on COI, and read that in an ideal world COI is less than 10%, or 15% maximum, and Wombat's are much higher.

However, then the research I looked at said that with line-breeding, and keeping certain lines within the dog, that sometimes high COI's can be permissable with breeders that know what they are doing, rather than two dogs that are bred together carelessly and happen to have a low COI. (I hope what I just said makes sense...)

So, here is Wombat's COI, and also the link to his generation pedigree, and you can see that his grandfather on his father's side is a Westminster champion (which...honestly, since I don't know much about these things, I don't know how amazing that is, but my breeder said that it was one of the reasons she had for breeding this pair).

So here is his 5 generation pedigree: Five generation pedigree: Wombat
And here is his COI: Genetic information for Test33671 Wombat

If anyone has any input, I would appreciate it. Also, input relating to his COI and hips, regarding whether I should be worried about possible hip dysplasia, and getting insurance that will cover it for the first year, just in case. He does come from lines with clearances, and the breeder has told me that I will have the parents certifications in the puppy packet as well. Any thoughts are appreciated!!!
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:38 PM
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This is a little off topic, but I just want to say that Wombat is the coolest & most original name!
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:43 PM
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I would have no problem with that, but the COIs in my breeds are often higher due to a smaller gene pool. I wouldn't get a dog from a total outcross given the choice... it's a crapshoot.
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Old 04-21-2011, 01:03 PM
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Pet insurance is a good idea, at least when they are young. Even if you are not worried about hip dysplasia. Goldens are oral puppies and can get themselves in trouble, or even though you will vaccinate parvo can still happen, etc.

As far as COI--I am conflicted on this one. I personally worry about the loss of genetic diversity by linebreeding, yet I understand its benefits too. For those that linebreed well I am not sure there is a magic number.
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Old 04-21-2011, 01:04 PM
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You need to feel comfortable asking difficult or what you may think of as silly questions of your breeder and you need to feel they are giving you full and honest answers.

But, with that in mind, remember that breeders are frequently people who are better with dogs than they are with other people. Its a fine balance between the two, but you need to be comfortable with the breeder.
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