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Old 01-13-2013, 09:50 PM
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Connections between serious health issues and vaccination?

So I recently came across this website dogsnaturallymagazine.com and the front page has a bunch of stuff on the threat of vaccines and I read them and not only did they have a lot of good points but they were pulling points and studies out of reputable veterinary journals and I've probably spent about 3 hours now trying to prove them wrong but there is a lot of circumstantial and actual evidence pointing in that direction.everything from cancer to hip dysplasia to auto immune disease a lot of things and its kinda worrying me, and its sorta making some sense since my old dogs a 94 lb golden retriever and a 189 lb Tibetan mastiff lived to 16 and 18 with out a single health problem and they were only ever vaccinated once no heartworms treatment or anything. Here's a very small piece of tons of articles that made a good point and from what I've searched it seems like this isn't ********


This bears repeating. Dr. Ronald Schultz, the leading canine immunologist, publishes a study in which every single puppy is protected within hours of the very first vaccination. Thirty years prior to this, he determined that core vaccines (including distemper) last at least seven years, and most likely for the life of the dog. So it should be pretty obvious that it only takes one distemper vaccine to protect a puppy from distemper for life. Why then does the average dog get vaccinated for distemper at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks, one year, four years, seven years, ten years and if he is lucky enough to have lived through this unnecessary and dangerous onslaught thirteen and sixteen years of age? Nine shots of the same virus that is shown to be permanently effective within hours of the very first vaccine is considered a minimal vaccine schedule by most veterinarians many other dogs receive 15 or more shots of distemper! It is no wonder that joint disease is on the rise in dogs, especially in the most aggressively vaccinated subset: purebred dogs.


My tuco has had his 8 week shots and now I'm contemplating wether getting ones at 16 weeks makes sense



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Old 01-13-2013, 10:23 PM
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I know of somebody whose 8 year old dog (not a golden) just was diagnosed with lymphoma. This dog was raw fed and was titred all its life. Should I take this as an example of the owner doing harm to their dog?

I think people like to think they are in control and can keep their dogs from becoming ill, but....

On the flip side, my neighbor down the street faithfully gets all vaccinations and heartworm preventatives, etc... <- They actually do the year round heartworm preventative vs just the 6-9 months that we do. This St. Bernard is 11 years old and doing well.

My other neighbor too was just as faithful with the vaccinations and heartworm prevention, and their golden retriever was 17 when they opted to put her to sleep (she couldn't get up anymore, mentally she was still there, but her legs had completely failed her).

And DJD is something the dogs are born with. It's not caused by vaccinations. I'm sorry, but I know plenty of people who do not vaccinate their dogs and those dogs die from cancer and are crippled from hip dysplasia. Speaking with my vet - they feel that hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia is something the dogs are born with.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:08 PM
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Nevertheless they do not know this, hip displasia cannot be seen before the age of 8 weeks I believe, I'm not saying all this is the cause cancers and stuff and a dog can be perfectly healthy with all the vaccines but the stats here ( plus about 50 vets talking about it after I've spent about 10 straight hours looking into this) has led me to believe that we are way over vaccinating, the problems will always be there but not over vaccinating seems like it can make a strong difference, after all of this research I have decided to do the 16 week series of vaccines and year titres to check on levels. I think it's an important thing people should consider, I've read 52 different vets talking about this issue along with calling 3 local vets and 4 veterinarians from those vets and pretty much everyone agreed that pharmaceutical companies are too involved in the education about vaccination and that there are a massive number of short and long term issues ( particularly involving allergies, immune response or inflammatory illness) most said that puppy vaccination was nessesary but most also said that regular adult vaccination doesn't make sense and can cause extremely serious issues, judging from everything I've heard I've chosen to do only 2 puppy vaccination sets followed by homeopathic detox as told by my vet in an oddly hush hushed voice, lol. And yearly titres.


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Old 01-14-2013, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megora View Post
I know of somebody whose 8 year old dog (not a golden) just was diagnosed with lymphoma. This dog was raw fed and was titred all its life. Should I take this as an example of the owner doing harm to their dog?

I think people like to think they are in control and can keep their dogs from becoming ill, but....

On the flip side, my neighbor down the street faithfully gets all vaccinations and heartworm preventatives, etc... <- They actually do the year round heartworm preventative vs just the 6-9 months that we do. This St. Bernard is 11 years old and doing well.

My other neighbor too was just as faithful with the vaccinations and heartworm prevention, and their golden retriever was 17 when they opted to put her to sleep (she couldn't get up anymore, mentally she was still there, but her legs had completely failed her).

And DJD is something the dogs are born with. It's not caused by vaccinations. I'm sorry, but I know plenty of people who do not vaccinate their dogs and those dogs die from cancer and are crippled from hip dysplasia. Speaking with my vet - they feel that hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia is something the dogs are born with.
in addition, i join know where you heard that djd (osteoarthritis) they are born with, but Only very few cases are from birth and other causes include wear and tear on the joints that can be caused by an assortment of things and the main "congenital" cause is a malformed hip (hip dysplatia) which aparently vets cannot tell if they have until about 8 weeks of age (not 100% sure on that one) the age where many pups get vaccinated, although to be fair this is very circumstantial and im sure if it can be caused by vaccination only a small percentage can be caused by vaccines, nevertheless there are soo many other illnesses that can be directly caused
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:07 AM
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They do the vaccines at 8, 12 and 16 weeks because every puppy looses its moms immunity at different times. So they space them a month apart to try to make sure as soon as immunity is worn out they are protected. So, I do one at 8 weeks about then at 16 weeks or a few days after. Then I revaccinate 1 year later and then no more.

I believe between neutering and over vaccinating (well, vaccinating my dog at all) has caused a few of his issues including his autoimmune issues.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
in addition, i join know where you heard that djd (osteoarthritis) they are born with, but Only very few cases are from birth and other causes include wear and tear on the joints that can be caused by an assortment of things and the main "congenital" cause is a malformed hip (hip dysplatia) which aparently vets cannot tell if they have until about 8 weeks of age (not 100% sure on that one) the age where many pups get vaccinated, although to be fair this is very circumstantial and im sure if it can be caused by vaccination only a small percentage can be caused by vaccines, nevertheless there are soo many other illnesses that can be directly caused
By that last sentence you mean that there are 'soo many other illnesses that can be directly caused' by vaccinations? The whole argumentation is very difficult to follow for me, it's all very vague. Do you have links to scientific work on this? So I mean, not just your own words about what you have read and heard, but the actual sources.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
and a dog can be perfectly healthy with all the vaccines but the stats here
As I said that people who want to prove a point can find and parse stats to back up their arguments. As you just did researching this topic.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:01 AM
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As I said that people who want to prove a point can find and parse stats to back up their arguments. As you just did researching this topic.
I have to agree. My golden Joplin lived to be almost 16 getting all his shots every single one of those 15 years. I worry about doing the wrong thing, but I truly fear diseases like Lepto most.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:24 AM
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there is very little data regarding vaccines. They are just now conducting a rabies challenge which will give us more information about how long the rabies vaccine actually lasts. This is the big issue to me... we know the diseases exist, we know that vaccine decreases disease and that our dogs are overall healthier with vaccines... what has not been studied is how long a vaccine lasts and thus how often you have to do it. There is a question about whether titers really give the whole picture and whether a low titer means low protection or not and whether one vaccine is enough... the problem is a lack of data... everone has these tails of well my dog lived to be 15 with vaccines every year or my dog died at 5 despite vaccination...

What we need is data and someone to undertake these studies so we know what we are dealing with.

I personally do minimal vaccines typically only doing distemper parvo and rabies by law but when natalie the wolfhound came home there was a bad influenza going around and my breeder and I knew of two wolfhound breeders whose younger dogs had all died when this influenza went around their kennels (houses) the older dogs who had been vaccinated every year their entire life survived... it was the younger dogs the young health dogs that died... some of them lost every one of their hounds.... Natalie got a vaccine with influenza in it (wolfhounds are prone to heart and lung issues)

In my opinion there is not enough information out there... this is not an area for black and white thinking. I have a "friend" who is so wedded to her ideology that she has opted to totally stop vaccinating, i don't want her dogs anywhere near mine. Does that mean I vaccinate for everything of course not... I don't do lyme, or giardia, or bordatella (typically), or lepto but these are vaccines that don't impact anyone else with diseases that aren't contagious (bordatella but my dogs don't board) What vaccines we give has to be balanced and re-evaluated constantly as we get more information
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:40 AM
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^ And Shalva, that is absolutely reasonable.

Personally I do not overvaccinate and I'd be very happy to follow along if the veterinary community goes from 3 years to 6 years between vaccinations, as I had when they went from 1 year to 3 years...

But I'm not going to go it alone without my vet.

Titres are a reasonable option - but my gosh they are expensive compared to the shot. o_O I think my concern is that if you are somebody who initially jumps into cutting vaxs because you do not care to spend all that money at the vet... are you really going to spend the money on the titres?

And heartworm - is an existing problem. Probably less of an issue if you have a thickly coated and mostly indoor dog like our collie (who really only gets heartworm coverage for 3 or 4 months of the year), but dogs DO test positive for heartworm all the time. Treatment is expensive and sometimes dangerous for the dogs.
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