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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:16 PM
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you guys have to understand, im NOT AGAINST VACCINATING, im against OVER VACCINATING. Ive seen parvo and distemper in dogs, and they are completely horrible, hence why I am vaccinating Tuco, but over vaccinating him as an adult doesnt make sense, especially considering how much less adults are prone to those diseases

here are a few sources that i got my info from, a lot of them fairly reputable
understand I think that there needs to be a lot more research done, but there have been a few studies done, not only by anti vaccine fanatics, and mostly with the rabies and distemper vaccines, and they seem to be pointing at immunity lasting 6+ years, and it is also known that the vaccines cause long term, mild inflammatory effects that increase as the vaccines do, which in other animals and humans have been linked to decrease auto immune function and increased mitotic defects, leading to tumors.

Cohen AD, Shoenfeld Y. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity. Journals of Autoimmunity 1996; 9: 699-703.

Vascellari M, Melchiotti E, Bozza MA et al. Fibrosarcomas at presumed sites of injection in dogs: characteristics and comparison with non-vaccination site fibrosarcomas and feline post-vaccinal firosarcomas. Journal of Veterinary Medicine 50 (6): 286-291, 2003.

Dodds WJ. Immune-mediated diseases of the blood. Advances in Veterinary Science and Comparative Medicine 1983; 27:163-196.

Tizard I. Risks associated with use of live vaccines. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 1990; 196:1851-1858.

Moore et al, Adverse events diagnosed within three days of vaccine administration in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 227:1102–1108, 2005.

Schultz RD, Ford RB, Olsen J, Scott F. Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices. Vet Med, 97: 1-13, 2002

Dodds WJ. More bumps on the vaccine road. Advances in Veterinary Medicine 1999; 41: 715-732.

Phillips TR, Jensen JL, Rubino MJ, Yang WC, Schultz RD. Effects on vaccines on the canine immune system. Canadian Journal of Veterinary Research 1989; 53: 154-160.

HogenEsch H, Azcona-Olivera J, Scott-Moncrieff C, Snyder PW, Glickman LT. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity in the dog. Advances in Veterinary Medicine 1999; 41:733-744.

Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 2001; 38: 1-4.

Scott-Moncrieff JC, Azcona-Olivera J, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, HogenEsch H. Evaluation of antithyroglobulin antibodies after routine vaccination in pet and research dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 2002; 221: 515-521.

Wilbur LA, Evermann JF, Levings RL, Stoll LR, Starling DE, Spillers CA, Gustafson GA, McKeirnan AJ. Abortion and death in pregnant bitches associated with a canine vaccine contaminated with blue tongue virus. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 1994; 204:1762-1765.

Dougherty SA, Center SA. Juvenile onset polyarthritis in Akitas. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 1991; 198: 849-855.

Twark L, Dodds WJ. Clinical use of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 2000; 217:1021-1024.

Flemming DD, Scott JF. The informed consent doctrine: what veterinarians should tell their clients. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 224: 1436-1439, 2004.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
First of all the issue here isn't wether
Or not to vaccinate, it's wether OVER vaccinating causes serious health issues, I have chosen to vaccinate at 16 weeks and then do yearly titres to make sure I get the levels right. Also although lots of the info is circumstantial it seems there is too much evidence to ignore. I have spent lots of time the past few days reading veteranry journals and articles online both pro and anti vaccine and I read an article where they sent dozens of vets this questionare and most said that they over vaccinate, also from looking on these sites I don't seem to see any alterior motive to making these claims, they are not trying to sell anything and they seem to take outside opinions into account. I decided to recreate this quiz with local vets located in my province and I have sent it to 45 vets, I have gotten 6 responses so far and here is a summarization. 5 said they feel we over vaccinate, 4 said titres are a better alternative, all said they believe puppies should be vaccinated. 4 said they believe bad diets play a larger role in these health issues than vaccines. All said they feel the pharma companies have too much influence in the veterinary profession and education, 5 felt they were not sufficiently educated about vaccines. Once I get all the replies back I will post them all on this thread


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I need to clear something up before people in Ontario get the wrong information:

Firstly, a number of vets in Ontario are using vaccines labelled as 3 year but only granting the certificate for 2 years. According to the Veterinarian working at the Ministry of Health and Long term care Ontario, its considered Professional Misconduct if your veterinarian does not document and acquire your consent to "Off lable use"

Quote from the Veterinarian herself via email (I can screen shot for those who do not believe me if requested via PM) When she said "this case" shes refering to me as my vet was requesting me to update his rabies vaccine when a 3 year was used but failed to ask permission to only grant it for 2 years. So I emailed this Veterinarian and inquired about it.
""Requiring re-vaccination of an animal for rabies in two years when the manufacturer’s label recommendation is three years constitutes what is called “off-label” use of the rabies vaccine, which is usually within the prerogative of veterinarians; however, in this case, off-label use actually contradicts the legal requirements of the Regulation.
I placed a call to the College of Veterinarians of Ontario (the regulatory and licensing body for veterinarians in Ontario) to have them clarify this apparent conflict for me, and they provided the following material, which I think you will find very helpful. The attached article was published in the September 2009 CVO Update, which was circulated to all licensed veterinarians in the province of Ontario (for the full version of the CVO Update issue, please see http://www.cvo.org/uploadattachments...tember2009.pdf )

The article basically states that your veterinarian CANNOT impose a 2 year revaccination requirement for your animal when using a 3 year vaccine WITHOUT your explicit, informed consent for this off-label use of rabies vaccine. This would need to include explaining to you why he/she has set the earlier reimmunization date, explaining any risks associated with so doing, answering any questions you might have in relation to that information, and documenting your consent. Failure to do this would constitute professional misconduct, and if reported to the College of Veterinarians of Ontario (CVO) could result in disciplinary action against the veterinarian. In the opinion of the CVO, this also begs the question of why a veterinarian would administer a three-year vaccine and then set an earlier reimmunization date, when shorter duration vaccines are available. If your veterinarian is licensed in Ontario, he/she must be aware of this."


So basically this means they cannot vaccinate your pet with a vaccine labelled for 3 year without your explicit consent and noted in your file with a signature of some sort from you. In my vets case, I brought him in "I asked for a 3 year vaccines" they said they gave him a 3 year and the paper said hes due in 2 years because they only grant it for 2.



Secondly, the above issue brought on another problem. My vet told me that if I choose to not vaccinate titres are an option and they will issue a certificate of vaccination for 2 years. Thats way illegal. In Ontario, a titre is not an acceptable form of vaccination so if your dog bites, and you produce a titre test to the City Officials, they will not accept it.



"There are a number of issues with respect to titres as an acceptable proof of immunity, particularly in animal species.
The legislation is very clear and veterinarians are aware of the legislated requirement for either a vaccination certificate OR a certificate of exemption. "

So if your vet is saying a titre is the equivalent of vaccination I would find another vet. This is why I will not titre for rabies and why I have aquired a Medical Exemption from my vet. If I titred and my vet issues me a certificate for rabies when no vaccine was actually given my vet can lose their license.

The above is why I think my OLD vet refused to give me a copy of my dogs medical records which I eventually got.

So, these are Ontario's laws, some people think a rabies titre is an acceptable form of vaccination which it is not. I dont want anyone to think their titre test is an acceptable form of vaccination in Ontario and be screwed over If there an issue with their dog biting.

To sum it all up short form
1. If your dog was issued a 3 year vaccination after the yearly booster was given and they only grant it for 2 years without your noted permission= Misconduct
2. If your vet tells you a rabies titre is an acceptable form of vaccine the city will accept= Illegal
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2013, 10:46 PM
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Yea, from my past experience only one vet has ever broken that rule and they also were completely inexperienced and took forever to figure out that he was just dehydrated


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Old 01-15-2013, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
2. If your vet tells you a rabies titre is an acceptable form of vaccine the city will accept= Illegal
Yea, but if your dog is not well enough to be vaccinated with the rabies vaccine, they are allowed to give you a certificate to hold it off for a couple years i believe
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:46 PM
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A medical exemption is not available everywhere.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:13 AM
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Yea, but if your dog is not well enough to be vaccinated with the rabies vaccine, they are allowed to give you a certificate to hold it off for a couple years i believe
They can give you a medical exemption for 2 weeks, 2 years or life. But they cannot titre and say "Ok, his rabies titre came back good so heres another 2 year certificate"

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Originally Posted by BajaOklahoma View Post
A medical exemption is not available everywhere.
I was specifying just for the Province of Ontario
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:12 AM
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Tuco, you have certainly done your research and I applaud that. Unfortunately, most of your references are too dated to put much value in. I agree with you, OVER vaccinating is the problem, but we can't yet define what over vaccinating means.

Regarding rabies titres....even in places that accept them....that's only if the dog hasn't bitten or scratched anyone. If they do, you face a whole gamut of legal issues. Scratches with their nails are considered the same as a bite for rabies exposure.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotel4dogs View Post
Tuco, you have certainly done your research and I applaud that. Unfortunately, most of your references are too dated to put much value in. I agree with you, OVER vaccinating is the problem, but we can't yet define what over vaccinating means.
Not only are they dated, but they're cherrypicked, and most don't have anything to do with measuring the actual risk of vaccines.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:02 AM
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Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schulz have ongoing research with their rabies challenge fund. Duration of Immunity Study for Rabies Vaccine - Rabies Challenge Fund The co-founder Kris Christine posts here occassionally on related issues.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:45 AM
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Not only are they dated, but they're cherrypicked, and most don't have anything to do with measuring the actual risk of vaccines.
As I have said repeated there is vet little research on the subject over over vaccination those resources not only have to do with over vaccination but with vaccine reactions. As for the dating, I failed to find any current studies that relate to the subject, nevertheless I read over them and most aren't dated enough to make a significant difference on what the study was of.


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