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Conformation numbers continuing to go down, any thoughts?

13K views 104 replies 20 participants last post by  Alaska7133 
#1 ·
I've only been showing a short time. But my local club tells me that numbers are 50% of what they were 10 years ago. That's a huge drop. Our Jan and Mar shows used to include obedience and rally, but the added expense is too much for the low numbers. So The numbers going down are obedience and rally also, not just conformation.

I was curious what your local clubs are doing to bring the numbers up for shows (conformation and obedience)?
 
#2 ·
Some clubs are running AM and PM shows/trials. Others are joining clusters of other shows to help increase entries.
 
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#3 ·
It's kind of tough in Alaska. We're on our own up here. We do support the CKC show in Whitehorse, our next closest shows, but even they are 18 hour drive. So our clubs in Alaska have always banded together. Our clusters have had an allowance by AKC for years to combine shows between clubs. So our January cluster of 2 shows is the Alaska Kennel Club one day and the Tanana Valley Kennel Club the second day. So that's the good news, we've been doing that. Normally we have 2 or 3 shows on a weekend. Our member travel far for shows all over the state. To drive from our farthest south show in Kenai to our farthest north show in Fairbanks, is a 12 hour drive. Many of the specialties have always had combos with all breed clubs. So last weekend our golden specialty was the same day as an all breed, plus there was an all breed the next day. Both days the golden club had obedience/rally trials too. So I think we could only add to that by holding 2 all breed shows in a day. It was suggested, but most people are not interested in having such a long day. Our all breed shows last weekend went from 9 am to 4:30 pm, doubling that would be difficult for many people. Our obedience/rally trials started at 9 am and I think I was there until 5 pm or so.,doubling that would make a very long day.

We still need to bring more entries in the door. Combining helps us already, but it just isn't enough. Our costs for facility rentals continue to go up, and the entries go down.

Hank, how are you all getting through 2 trials in a day? What time do you start and end? Do you have 2 obedience rings going at the same time?
 
#4 ·
I think breeders must be more open to being mentors to the younger generations. I am fortunate that I have found a whole group to mentor me. One thing I have noticed is the average age of the people showing is closer to retirement.

As for our club, we do try to encourage as many pet owners to join, this is what I did. From there, we get involved with helping to put on the dog shows. We have noticed that some people do get scared off when they find out that there are a lot of show breeders and serious trainers involved involved.

We all become ambassadors for the breed. Anytime I see someone with a golden, I stop and talk and invite them to join.
 
#6 · (Edited)
My experience showing my first boy has been fun. I've found people are generally nice and friendly - if you are. If you are going in to set up your grooming stuff every show - you are bumping into the same people generally.

Probably the -ish areas are where you bump into people who may be a bit more insular or probably not as nice to newcomers? Meaning, there may be people who outright ignore people they don't know already or they have some kind of chip on their shoulder or attitude that doesn't "feel" friendly, even if it wasn't intentional?

Probably a good example - and it was something I was laughing about after it happened but did feel a little offended after....

So I was grooming Bertie at a show. And when I groom Bertie it's basically just bathe/dry/finish and done. Have the same routine each time pretty much. He's not shedding right now - and certainly NOT HUGE CLUMPS!

There were other people set up around me who were stripping undercoat and stuff like that. And white tufts were rolling like tumbleweeds across the grooming tent.

There was a golden lady set up not far from me who saw the tumbleweeds and made a point of walking over to pick them up and gave me a look like she thought I was doing all that! I guess it made sense since at the time it was just an Irish setter to my left. But the white tufts didn't come from Bertie! My best guess is it could have been from her own dog and blown around!

And later on when I pulled up next to the tent to quickly grab the stuff I didn't want to leave overnight (dryer and toolbox), she saw me pull up where I did (essentially in an unloading zone) and was loudly complaining to somebody else about my parking right there.

And not to pile on, but I was standing outside the ring waiting to go back in, so had to stay near the entrance. She was sitting with one of her dogs right there. While trying to keep my very-friendly-interested-in-smelling-everyone-everything dog from checking out the crowd of dogs behind me, I also had to focus on keeping him from getting too close to her or her dog. The one time he manage to look over at her dog, she was loudly correcting him. Now obviously, I was having to deal with keeping Bertie from sticking his nose up every nearby dog's butt, but the correction was not warranted considering he wasn't even close to her dog.

It might be the lady was just having a very bad day yesterday and I was around at the worst of it LOL - because let me put it this way, I had been wondering if this was some kind of grudge against my breeder because all of the crabby stuff started after my breeder brought Bertie's brother in, saw Bertie, checked Bertie out and so on. Prior to that, this lady actually had been friendly and chirping back to me that morning as I set up! Who knows.

My thing is that you have a lot of people who just aren't that friendly in conformation towards newcomers. Not saying they are unfriendly or having bad day like that above lady. Just they don't always put on the ambassador of the sport cloak even when they are having cwabby days.

And that was just my point really... if you are going to promote the sports like conformation, obedience, field, etc... you have to be nice to newbies and spectators. Those spectators especially - that's where you will have future dog competition people. Especially those families with the dog-crazy kids.

I've seen people in conformation snap at spectators... and I know it happens in obedience too. I can totally agree with the impatience when somebody walks up to stand in the warm up space in front of the ring or who tries to pet your dog when you are warming up, but you gotta be nice!
 
#7 ·
I was talking to some old time judges / breeders, and they told me that it is a shame that the grooming for golden retrievers at shows has gone so overboard. They said years ago, their was not all this primping and fluffing, and a lot more time was spent socializing and getting to know your fellow everybody.
 
#52 ·
I have a great love for horses and dogs and always have. I would have loved to become involved with both as a child but my parents weren't part of that world so never made the effort to figure out how to help me get involved. And probably the biggest driver of that was money. If we would have had 4H in our community it might have worked out for me, but it didn't. I was able to learn to ride as a teenager and continue to ride as an adult when I had some money but was limited by my choice to be a stay at home mom. Now I have more time and money but my kids are still an investment that has to take priority.

Ellie is slow to mature, but if her breeder eventually feels that conformation would be a reasonable goal, I would consider trying it. (I truly do not mean to be offensive to anyone who loves conformation showing, so please know I do not mean this unkindly.) The number one reason though that I'm not interested is because I am so turned off by the 'fluffing and puffing' and general air of Goldens being shown as something other than what they should be: a wash and go sporting dog. (If I wanted to spend a lot of time and money grooming a smart dog, I'd own poodles.) This is not necessarily the big reason, I'm sure, that numbers are down, but the idea that I have to buy a $500 blow dryer so I can show my sporting dog seems ridiculous to me. I am probably in the minority but I think it is dead wrong that people are doing all kinds of artificial things to make Golden Retrievers ring ready when they the breed standard says they're primarily a hunting dog and should be shown in hard working condition. If their coats are not supposed to be curly but are allowed to have some wave to them and we're showing to determine the best breeding stock, then natural coat should be shown, not artificially manipulated to be something it's not. And I absolutely get that it is smart to groom a dog to show him to advantage and put his best foot forward, no need to highlight weaknesses etc., but I think it's gone WAY too far. That is one of the biggest reasons that conformation showing is a turn off to me.

For the rest of America, I bet it's a combination of things. I would love to know if horseshow numbers are down also. The less rural we become, the fewer opportunities kids have to be exposed to animals and find out if a love for animals could become a genuine interest or talent. If you're an animal lover as a kid and your parents are not, chances are your opportunities to get involved are extremely limited unless your parents have money. It used to be you'd hear from people how they road their bike up to the local barn and begged to do chores in return for lessons or just for a chance to be in the atmosphere. As farm land becomes more scarce and barns have to move farther out, I wonder how many kids can do things like that. I know that I wouldn't let my kids ride a bike outside of my neighborhood (and we live in a very safe area just a lot of traffic) and our nearest barn is only a couple miles away. I bet not nearly as many kids now have grandparents or relatives to go visit during the summer who have property with livestock to expose them to. I think a pretty high percentage of dog people are also horse people or they used to be when they were younger. It sort of transfers over.

But I bet a big part of it is time and money. Kid have so many opportunities today to get very involved with team sports that really become a way of life; travel soccer, travel baseball, year round swim team, now days if you really enjoy dance, you don't just take lessons a couple days a week, you are on a competition dance or cheer team and your parents spend all their free time and money on that. It goes on and on. As kids get older, they are aware of the "popularity" factor and it's a lot of fun socially to be on a winning soccer team, you have to march to your own drummer if you're interested in dogs. Even horse sports, I think feel more 'solitary' than a team sport unless you are lucky enough to live in a community that supports it and that falls back to opportunity I think.

I imagine all of this has something to do with kids AND adults not being involved. There may be plenty of people who might be more involved with a dog sport but because they are shuttling their kids around to every lesson under the sun, their own interests take a back seat. I don't think it was this way 25 years ago. I have 3 kids and finding the time and the money to spend on my own activities after spending time and money on theirs is not easy. My husband loves to play golf, another pastime that isn't cheap. If we constantly juggle free time between all 5 of our family members interests, it's hard to find family time to relax. It's a constant balancing act and some people are better at it than others. I think the more our society focuses on our children the less we focus on ourselves and that may not always be the healthiest thing for the kids.
 
#8 ·
I think entries are down for a lot of reasons. One is that it has become very, very hard for an owner handler to finish a dog (I'm not referring to breeder/owner/handlers) on their own. The price of handlers continues to go up. Show entry fees go up. The price of hotels goes up. The price of gas is ridiculous.
So if you are going to show your dog for a 3 day weekend, within a reasonable driving distance, you are probably looking at at least $700-$900 for the weekend, often more. We looked for the biggest shows to enter, so it often involved a 4-5 hour drive.
Hotel for 3 nights---- $300
Handler for 3 shows-- $300
Gas to/from show---- $100
Entry fees----------- $ 90
Food and misc------- $100
Tips when the handler wins :))) --- $100
It's an expensive hobby.
 
#9 ·
Yes, and that is probably the biggest reason. I also wonder if now that youth sports has grown so much, and including girls' sports, if that is where peoples' time and money a going into. All these hobbies have gotten ridiculously expensive.

My daughter is going to be in her first horse show in a couple weeks. When it is all done, it will probably have cost me over 1500, and I bought a used, cheap costume.
 
#11 ·
It's one of the reasons I entered big shows (ok, big brag coming....). I knew I had an outstanding dog, and the judges at the big shows would be more likely to have at least some idea what a Golden ought to look like. So the more points you can gather in one weekend, the less your total cost to show.
We had an 8 point weekend. That was a huge $$ saver for me.
 
#13 ·
It's one of the reasons I entered big shows (ok, big brag coming....). I knew I had an outstanding dog, and the judges at the big shows would be more likely to have at least some idea what a Golden ought to look like. So the more points you can gather in one weekend, the less your total cost to show.
Here's the thing that bothers me..... I know I have an outstanding dog. I had him up on a table sopping wet and his breeder - who is a long time professional handler and now an AKC judge looked at him and told me that looking at him on the table he is finishable. She watched him later in the ring and came up to me afterwards and told me that with a professional handler he would finish in a heartbeat. Meaning yeah, I'd have to pay for a handler, but they could finish him very fast. To put this in perspective, she liked him better than his brother who got his CH after 6 weekends and now is accumulating GCH points left and right and won the breed the other day. She says he is the whole package. She said definitely I can finish him, but it will take me a lot longer. And her feeling is finish fast so you can go on and do other stuff. Case in point with the boy she kept from Bertie's litter, she wants to get him into field.

The part in bold is what bothers me and it's something I want to stick to my guns on. I don't want somebody else taking my dog into the ring. So if it takes me 2-3 years to gain enough experience and smarts out there as far as handling my own dog, it's worth it.

@Cubbysan - not all grooming is lumped in the same shoe, I hope. :)
 
#12 ·
Yes the costs have gone up and haven't kept on par with wages.

Yes the politics are difficult between others showing dogs.

There are some other things too.
1. There aren't as many breeders breeding dogs worthy of showing. Let's face it. If rescues are having to bring dogs from foreign countries to provide dogs, then we have a problem. Which brings us to a real issue, we have decided that a golden looks like X in the show ring. If you don't breed to that standard, you will not have show puppies available. It doesn't have anything to do with the breed standard, it is breeding to the show standard. Which is obvious when you see a wonderful field dog with a CCA.
2. With so few breeders having show puppies available, those breeders are more likely to sell those show prospects to other show people already in the game and not to people new to the game.
3. Let's look at show wins. How often do you see owner-handlers win? It's very frustrating when you see a pro hanging out with the judges before or after entering the ring. They know each other well because the judges are former pros themselves.
4. Most judges are former professional handlers. The process for becoming a judge is very kind to former pros than it is to owner-handlers, so owner-handlers rarely anymore become judges. AKC reps are former pro handlers and can approve their pro handler friends as judges. So we need to look at the whole process of approving judges.

So until AKC makes showing more friendly to owner-handlers, we will continue,down this road. Why go to a show if only pros get put up as winners?

This winter I stuck around for Group and BIS last winter at a show. I had never stuck it out that long before since we never got that far. It was at that point that any owner-handlers that did make it to Group, turned their leashes over to pros. I saw pros at Group that I had not seen all day, all they were there for was Group wins. I didn't expect that. There were no owner-handlers that I remember in Group, it was a ring for pros only. How very very sad.

My goal is to finish Lucy. She's a very good dog. She is capable of finishing. But am I holding her back?
 
#14 ·
Megora,
Same thing here. I'll be 80 before Lucy finishes. Her sister finished with a pro in record time. I think under 10 shows. Lucy's breeder said the same thing, finish her with a pro, with you it will take a ling time. I'm also stubborn. I did use a pro for one cluster. It wasn't a lot of fun. I think the politics is worse between pros, pros are really hard on each other. So it looks like we'll continue on the March. I'll enter in shows when it's convenient for me and doesn't require driving more than an hour.
 
#15 ·
First, in case there is anyone here who doesn't know this (which I doubt), I didn't send Tito out with a handler. I took the middle of the road option, which was to hand him off ringside to a professional handler. I was at every show.
I looked at it this way. There are lots of things in life which I know a lot about, but don't do myself. My medical knowledge is better than most, but I do go to a doctor. I am a heck of a great cook, but I do go to restaurants sometimes. I can sew, but I buy clothes already made. And so on.
So I can show my own dog, yes. I took the classes. I know how to do it. I put a couple of points on him myself. But I can't do it like the professional can. I can't run, I waddle. I can't stack him right, I keep messing with him. So I opted to let a professional take him in the ring.
I know we've had this discussion before, but I firmly believe that most of the time the pros win not because of who they are, but because they know what they are doing when they are out there. At our shows here, since I showed in all big shows, we have EVERY big name handler in the ring at the same time....it would be pretty foolish to say that so-and-so won because they are a big name handler. The gal who showed Tito wasn't by any stretch a big name handler compared to the others in the ring (she was the assistant to a big name handler), yet she and he had a certain magic together that made the judges stop and pay attention. She was (is) excellent at what she does.
So it depends on what your goals are. Tito didn't mature enough to show until he was about 2-1/2, and at that point I didn't want to take 4 years to finish him. Heck, he was already getting some white hairs around his eyes! THAT wouldn't have looked good in the ring, even though age related white is not to be faulted....it would look like, "good grief, how old IS this dog, and he's not finished yet??". My goal at that point was to finish the CH and get on with performance stuff, as conformation really isn't my "game". I know to some people it's all that matters, but it's not my thing. Just wanted to finish a really nice dog and move on. For others, who really enjoy the whole show scene, it's a different ballgame.
 
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#16 ·
I was sitting down watching the bitches and best of breed part on Saturday - normally I head home right away, but this time I knew both of Bertie's brothers had a chance at winning Breed (the one won breed and the other got best of winners). But as I was sitting there with Bertie, I looked over and saw people hiding behind bushes and watching from a distance as their own dogs were being shown.

I know that'd have to be me since Bertie is a momma's boy. Probably though I wouldn't even be allowed to go to the show because no matter where I am, he'd know I was out there somewhere. <- And I was thinking that I'd really hate that. :)

So I know it's going to be HARD going forward, especially with me starting to enter Bertie in Open classes per his breeder's urging. But I'm giving myself another year or two to see. :)
 
#17 ·
I've found that, in general, if your dog knows where you are he's okay. If you are moving around, they get worried.
In general ;) .
 
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#19 ·
Okay this thread scaring the heck out of me.

I co-own with my breeder, and plans are that after clearances and she gets her CH, she will be bred, but heck if I am the one showing her, she is going to be too old. I am sure my breeder will handle her when it needs to be done. As it is she is slow at maturing, so we probably won't enter a show for at least another year.

One thing we are going to do for experience is start her in UKC shows.
 
#26 ·
Okay this thread scaring the heck out of me.

I co-own with my breeder, and plans are that after clearances and she gets her CH, she will be bred, but heck if I am the one showing her, she is going to be too old. I am sure my breeder will handle her when it needs to be done. As it is she is slow at maturing, so we probably won't enter a show for at least another year.

One thing we are going to do for experience is start her in UKC shows.
Marie - this sounds ideal and good luck. DO NOT BE SPOOKED OFF. Or quit if it is you yourself who is interested in getting into this. :)

I think based on what I'm experiencing.... there is a 1-2 year learning curve. And you starting early with Hush will help. I didn't get started with Bertie until he was about 12-14 months old. He was 17 months old when I took him into the ring the first time.

He is now 22 months old - :eek: And I do see some major improvements while showing him. Certain judges help too. The judge I showed to on Saturday was AWESOME. It's great when you come across judges who genuinely LIKE the dogs they are judging and aren't doing an assembly line thingy while doing the exams. He was talking to Bertie and praising him for standing still on the exam and so on.

**** I feel your pain on the horse show tack! At least the western stuff is fun. I showed saddleseat so the show outfit could be fashionably hideous actually and still cost a bit. :D
 
#20 ·
Barb,
The problem is that hiring a pro means you will have a higher possibility of winning because you hired a pro. Who is on the end of the leash shouldn't matter, only the dog should matter. Unfortunately dogs are shown to judges who were pros by pro handlers. Why do you think people get excited when they find out they will be showing to a breeder judge and not a pro judge?

Cubbysan, I would focus on your daughter learning how to show your dog. She is young and more capable of understanding how to get the most out of dog. For some reason kids just get it more than us adults. Im 50 years old trying to figure out how to show Lucy and win. I'm just now figuring out how to find as much out about a judge before bothering to enter. I'm learning former pros that are now judges, are not people I want to show to. Isn't that sad?

After 11 shows, Lucy and I have zero points with a dog that is finishable. Whenever I enter the ring at least 50% or more of the dogs are being showed by pros. When I look back at the wins to pro judges, they put up primarily pros. Not so with breeder judges.

So do I bag it and go back to hiring a pro? Heck no, I'm too thick skulled.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I do not think all judges are corrupt. I used to think the same thing, but I really don't anymore. If you have a good dog, you need to make that dog shine. If you are not making the dog or bitch stand out then you need to work on your handling. There was a good article I read a few weeks ago in the canine chronicle. I will try and find it.

I am by no means a pro or an expert, but I try and strive to prove each time I show. What works for one dog or bitch may not work for another. It is a learning curve.

If you want to show your dog and you love it, keep at it. Don't get discouraged.
 
#23 ·
If that were true then nobody would advertise their dogs either. There are many ways to influence a judge. Hiring a well known and well recognized pro is one of them. And from: www.facebook.com/KabukiCartoons
 

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#27 · (Edited)
Cubbysan,
Isn't it fun when you see the juniors do well? On Friday nights here we have show and go. I love running my dog with the juniors if they have space. I think I learn way more from the kids, plus they are more pleasant and not so uptight as the adults. I think the adults are unpleasant because they are uptight and not because they are jerks. Our show and go is taught be a local pro. She shows goldens and shelties amoungst other breeds. She has helped me a lot.

Showing is a skill like any other. It takes a long time to learn. A show person I know said she lost for the first 2 years of showing. Then she got the hang of things and started winning. Plus the dog has to figure out a bit of what is going on also.

One show in March I and one other woman were the only non-pros in the open bitches ring that day. When we finished, we hugged each other and said good job, we beat a pro! Sometimes the owner-handlers feel like the world is against us.
 
#29 ·
Barb,
You did get some points on Tito, so you aren't that bad! Maybe you sell yourself short. Showing is the hardest sport of all I think. That's why young people do so well. We had a couple of kids go to Eukanuba and Westminster from up here. One shows afghans and the other newfies. Neither breed is easy to show. I love seeing those 2 kids in the ring.

So back to bringing numbers up. How do we do that? I've heard it's a nationwide problem. I have a friend that showed her goldens in Puerto Rico. I looked at the book and none of the goldens were from Puerto Rico.
 
#30 ·
But, hiring a handler does not mean your dog is crap or that you need a handler to finish your dog. I have 2 beautiful dogs (I am biased) that finished with handlers. I just honestly do not have the time bc of work to show them enough to finish them, so I can concentrate on other things. I train and start then off, but I don't mind having a pro finish them. It doesn't mean diddly squat to me about quality (pro vs owner handler). It just all depends.
 
#38 ·
Most of the time it means your showing skills are crap, not your dog :D .

Stacy, I did put a couple of points on him, but there's no way I could go out and get the big majors, in this area at that time we needed 23 dogs for a 3 point major.
 
#31 ·
I think to get numbers up, I think we need to get younger people interested and involved.
 
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#32 ·
I'm sorry I didn't mean to insinuate that hiring a handler meant your dog was crap. I was intending to suggest people should have more confidence in their abilities of showing their dogs. The more we have pros handle our dogs for us, the bigger the problem with pros taking over showing will grow. I hate to see a time when no dogs are shown by anyone but a pro. It's sort of a circular argument. When you look at the numbers, 80% of dogs are shown by owners, 80% of wins are to pros. I wish we all just said the heck with it, I'm showing my own dog. I think we need to be less intimidated by the pros and get out there. If we don't, I wonder where the world of dog showing will go.
 
#33 ·
As a member of the so called 'younger generation' who is attempting/will be getting a start in conformation, I do find it a bit overwhelming with all the talk/drama about the conformation ring. That, and finding a great breeder who is also willing to be a mentor (being close by) is where I might run into some problems. I would think (or at least hope) that in a few years down the line once I'm done with vet school, a great breeder will entrust my first show dog to me. I am looking into owner handling, myself, but have zero experience in that area (or any dog showing area) up until the past few years until I got Beamer. I really wish I had the opportunity when I was younger to do Juniors, but it just wasn't a world I grew up in. Just some thoughts coming from someone on the outside...
 
#34 ·
Rainheart,
Right now you have a great dog to practice with. You could start now by learning how to groom. I practice on my non-show dogs before I try something on my show dog. You'll have lots of time to get used to grooming. You can do all your handling classes with Beamer. Nothing says it has to be a dog you are showing. I have taken non-show dogs to handling classes just to do something different. Get into the mode now so you are ready for a show dog. Go to shows to see how they are run. Volunteer to ring steward and get to know the process. Lots of things to learn and plenty of time to learn it. You'll get there it just takes time. Time is on your side. Don't wait until you're 50 like I did.
 
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#37 ·
I am definitely doing some of those things already... grooming Beamer is tough trying to teach myself. Ears never look right. I need someone to physically show me and that is where I'm running into some problems. I've volunteered a few times (only in conformation once, though) to steward and it was fun. I would like to again if I could. Handling classes is a great idea, and I have them close by. Right now they interfere with Agility, but with time, maybe they won't. I will see if he is interested in doing that, but I appreciate all the advice. I just find it hard to really get a foot into conformation when you are a complete outsider, but have such a passion for the breed.
 
#35 ·
I think culture itself has evolved away from "one winner" to "everyone gets a trophy", but the AKC still has a varsity mentality (which I love) . There is a similar discussion about the greying of obedience. I think part of it comes down to people feeling AKC is too hard, and drifting to softer, more user-friendly venues like CPDT obedience, Cynosport Rally, UKC conformation, CPE, Wag It Games, noseworks rather than tracking etc. I see both sides. I like that our dog training clients have fun experiences with their dogs available that dont stress them out and in which they can succeed easily- better than doing nothing with the dog! On the other hand, I respect the tradition and excellence of AKC, and its role in dog culture, and try to focus my personal dogs there.
 
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