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Megora · #11 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tippykayak

True. There are diminishing returns with increasing distractions if your dog doesn't have enough of a foundation for the situation.

Forget diminishing returns - what happens is it builds bad habits that need to be trained away. It's easier to train a puppy to focus than it is to correct a puppy who has learned to tune out the trainer. It doesn't take much for them to learn to tune mom out when they are somewhat independant minded social beings like my little twerp is.

With Jacks he never learned to tune me out because we always had very controlled class conditions. I took him way off into corners and kept away from other trainers until I knew for sure he was ready for more distractions.

Tippy, you know I use corrections in my training and have a full tool box as far as handling distractions - but I am very reluctant to use those with a 3 month old puppy.

It was pretty bad that I was fingering my training bag and thinking about the prong in there.

I won't even use a choke chain (which I think is easier on the dogs). <- I know he wasn't that bad considering his age and the fact he already had a foundation for the exercises. But darnit I expected better.

tippykayak · #12 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megora

Forget diminishing returns - what happens is it builds bad habits that need to be trained away. It's easier to train a puppy to focus than it is to correct a puppy who has learned to tune out the trainer. It doesn't take much for them to learn to tune mom out when they are somewhat independant minded social beings like my little twerp is.

Hmm...I guess in that situation I wouldn't be saying the dog's name at all or trying to get his attention, and I'd only shoot for building on the tiniest successes. Like, I'd let him get bored a bit of trying to go see the other dogs (unless he was throttling himself) and then mark and reward when he looked at me. That's what I do in puppy class, and I'm usually able to build a pretty solid attention habit in a pretty young pup.

Though, on the flip side, I do remember holding Jax with my arms because he was willing to throttle himself on the flat collar to go play with other people and dogs at the first few training sessions we did together in a distracting environment (he was 16 weeks when I got him). Still, he learned quickly that trying to go play never worked but that giving me attention did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megora

Tippy, you know I use corrections in my training and have a full tool box as far as handling distractions - but I am very reluctant to use those with a 3 month old puppy.

I have mixed feelings about corrections in general, but on a dog that young and who doesn't know the expectations at all, I'd have a hard time seeing merit in any correction or any equipment that relied on discomfort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megora

I know he wasn't that bad considering his age and the fact he already had a foundation for the exercises. But darnit I expected better.

There is nothing like a young dog to teach us a little humility as trainers. When you've spent years on a relationship and a habit base with a dog, he makes you look really, really good. A young dog or an old dog in a brand new training environment (like Comet and I at agility), and all of a sudden you see some of your gaps in communication and/or how much your dog has been making you look good.

Nairb · #13 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inge

But why would they schedule so many dogs in the same beginner class? When I took Tess to therapy dog class, there were 13 dogs, way too many. I was ok with it, because it was more for me than for her, and the distraction was good for her, but had she been less experienced, I would have been upset by it. Especially specialty classes, like agility or for that matter, therapy, should be given in smaller groups, in my opinion. I understand that it is tempting for training schools to sign up a lot of people, but...

I don't know the situation where you go, but I would guess our training facility needs 10-11 per class in order for it to be a profitable business. Either that, or they would need to charge more, which would likely result in fewer students.

Megora · #14 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tippykayak

Hmm...I guess in that situation I wouldn't be saying the dog's name at all or trying to get his attention, and I'd only shoot for building on the tiniest successes. Like, I'd let him get bored a bit of trying to go see the other dogs (unless he was throttling himself) and then mark and reward when he looked at me. That's what I do in puppy class, and I'm usually able to build a pretty solid attention habit in a pretty young pup.

*laughs* That would not work at all with Bertie. He can be pretty mule-headed when it comes to doing EXACTLY what he wants. I've tried that exact same method that you mention - holding onto him until he forgets about the other thing. Like an elephant, he never forgets. And sometimes he does things I swear out of pent up determination to do EXACTLY that because he WANTS to and I've been STOPPING him.

I did want a more confident puppy, so I have one. The twerp.

Quote:

There is nothing like a young dog to teach us a little humility as trainers.

As they teach us humility in all ways (me yelling - "BERTIE GET YOUR TONGUE OUT OF THE TREE WATER" for the zillionth time) after we've taken pride in how polished and obedient our other dogs are. Our older dogs DO make us look good, but deservedly so. There is a lot of work and training that went into those dogs. I think we get so adjusted to focusing on the minute details that we forget about the mountain you have to climb to get there.

With Jacks - at class tonight, I guarantee that my instructor will be drilling me on keeping him from dropping his head at pace changes and keeping his rear tucked on left turns. And that is what I'll be working on. <- It has been literally years since I had to keep Jacks from jumping or lunging at another dog. Or not performing the very basic heeling function on command.

With Bertie, I want to be working on that heads up heeling, movement, butt tucking, etc... <- Which is what we are working on at home every day.

But he just reminded me this past Saturday that I haz a LOT of work to do before I can start working on the finer (and funner) details of heeling away from home. Darnit.

K9-Design · #15 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 11:23 AM

Geeze what a circus!
I did the same puppy kindergarten with both Fisher and Slater. Same teacher and everything. Both were equally worthless. The only thing I learned the last time, was to cram a pizzle stick inside a kong and that keeps puppies occupied forever.
In those sort of situations I would totally scrap trying to get any training done with the puppy. You know they're only puppies once so let them soak in the environment and have a good time.

Megora · #16 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K9-Design

Geeze what a circus!
I did the same puppy kindergarten with both Fisher and Slater. Same teacher and everything. Both were equally worthless. The only thing I learned the last time, was to cram a pizzle stick inside a kong and that keeps puppies occupied forever.
In those sort of situations I would totally scrap trying to get any training done with the puppy. You know they're only puppies once so let them soak in the environment and have a good time.

But for $110 and 8 weeks - I better be getting more out of the class than hanging out.

After class I did chat with the instructor and let her know in as nice a way possible that when we get back to classes in a couple weeks.... I'll be listening and working along with everyone else, but I may be doing my own thing way off in the back at various points when I'm bored. I didn't use the word "bored" or put it that directly -

She's absolutely fine with that thankfully and didn't take offense. Phew.

tippykayak · #17 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megora

*laughs* That would not work at all with Bertie. He can be pretty mule-headed when it comes to doing EXACTLY what he wants. I've tried that exact same method that you mention - holding onto him until he forgets about the other thing. Like an elephant, he never forgets. And sometimes he does things I swear out of pent up determination to do EXACTLY that because he WANTS to and I've been STOPPING him.

I did want a more confident puppy, so I have one. The twerp.

Yeah - they can get in kind of a fixated mode where you're pretty much toast and they're kind of self-reinforcing that inappropriate fixation, which you really don't want to let them do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megora

There is a lot of work and training that went into those dogs. I think we get so adjusted to focusing on the minute details that we forget about the mountain you have to climb to get there.

Very true.

boomers_dawn · #18 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megora

You never realize how calm, trained, and wonderful your older dogs are until you deal with your first ever puppy class with a new puppy.

This is SO true! It's like being in puppy shock.

That class sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I would be ok letting puppies play in their very first semester of puppy class; for part of the time only to let off steam and socialize; then get to business and no barging in others' space. But NEVER a mixed bag of puppies with rescues who aren't puppies in the fray.

I've seen trainers let dogs barge in each others spaces and "correct" each other .... gives me high bp and an ulcer. I don't get the philosophy of "letting" adult dogs "correct" each other with snarkiness. And it's always the trainer's dog doing the correcting.. how come he's the one who's always right? He knows everything?

Megora · #19 (**permalink**) 01-07-2013, 09:37 PM

I just came back a short while ago from dog class with the "grown up dogs".

I got to class a half hour early with the big idea to sneak a little training with Bertie in. But we did socialization instead.

The assistant instructor is waiting for her next golden from Wynwood (hopefully mom is preggers) and she and our instructor spent the half hour playing with Bertie. Which was fine by me.

Instructor showed me a way to introduce dumbbells to puppies - dumbbell on a string - to encourage drive and encourage the puppy to pick up the dumbbell properly.

The assistant - I swear she had Bertie by the leash and was going to run away with him. She played with the dumbbell a little and marked/praised Bertie every time he reached for it. Which he was doing each time. I was very proud of my baby boy showing that bit of training.

As people arrived, he socialized with them and strutted around the floor like he's always been there. Absolutely no fear or shyness other than him checking in on me and Jacks and retreating back to our side from time to time.

I put him in his crate finally at class time and he was an angel. Some of my friends who arrived late didn't realize he was THERE until the end of the class when we were doing out of sight stays. We were all huddled in the far corner out of sight when I made my announcement. Their heads were spinning trying ot figure out where he was...

The one person actually had been sitting next to the crate and didn't realize there was a puppy in there. He was that good.

My one friend couldn't get over how calm and "mature" he was for a 15 week old puppy.

I'm thinking about taking him to class tomorrow with me and Jacks (I have class on Monday and Tuesdays). Like I told the one person - I just hate to leave the baby boy home.