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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:38 PM
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Fear/anxiety = you have more of this in a home you have never been too, and people that you have never seen.

Being protective of a home or a owner is a totally different thing.

the behaviorist said "Prince has a history of being protective"

As for training being done at your place Cubbysan. I agree that is what needs to happen for Prince. ONce we find him a new home. When talking to the behaviorist we told here we were willing to pay for training for Prince, She said that it would be much better to have him trained at his new home rather then at my moms.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:59 PM
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RJutten - this has got to be so difficult for you and your sister. And it is very hard to hear others say negative things when you are trying your best. Just try to remember that if you ask 100 people for their opinion, you will get 100 different answers. The thing is, all of the people here really do want to help all three of you.
When I read posts, I have to try to remember that I am only imaging the "tone of voice" used as they were writing it.
And it is extremely difficult to be objective about what is going on your own life. It doesn't help you all if everyone ignores issues. There may be something you hadn't thought of or can easily deal with once you are aware of it.

What about going ahead and starting the training now? As someone "sort of" in the education field (I work at a school, but not a teacher), I've learned that the earlier the intervention, the better. In fact, I would think doing the training now and repeating it in the new house could only help yur dog feel more comfortable in the new place.

Again best wishes and thank you for helping this Golden to become the best he can be.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2013, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BajaOklahoma View Post
RJutten - this has got to be so difficult for you and your sister. And it is very hard to hear others say negative things when you are trying your best. Just try to remember that if you ask 100 people for their opinion, you will get 100 different answers. The thing is, all of the people here really do want to help all three of you.
When I read posts, I have to try to remember that I am only imaging the "tone of voice" used as they were writing it.
And it is extremely difficult to be objective about what is going on your own life. It doesn't help you all if everyone ignores issues. There may be something you hadn't thought of or can easily deal with once you are aware of it.

What about going ahead and starting the training now? As someone "sort of" in the education field (I work at a school, but not a teacher), I've learned that the earlier the intervention, the better. In fact, I would think doing the training now and repeating it in the new house could only help yur dog feel more comfortable in the new place.

Again best wishes and thank you for helping this Golden to become the best he can be.
RJ: I agree with what Baja said. We all want what is best for Prince.
Did you contact the people on here in Lindsey's thread that expressed an interest in Prince?
Did you contact the Home for Life sanctuary?
Does the behaviorist or vet know of any people that might adopt Prince?
Have you posted him on Social media?
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2013, 10:29 PM
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Is there anything Positive about the way Prince performed in the test you would like to point out? As for the test being at the behaviorist house, shes a professional. So I trust her judgement.

You also say that Prince has "fear/anxiety" and was out of his element. panting and what not. You may be correct. So if he has a higher chance of biting someone whens hes stressing or even has fear. Then wouldn't the test be better at a strangers house were both fear/anxiety were more present?

As for the stranger danger? The behaviorist was acting and sounding scared when the stranger walked in the door for the test. Personally I think many MANY dogs would react the same way. he stiffened up a bit and MAY of growled. Did not lung forward or go ballistic. Yet held his ground until the stranger was approached by the behaviorist and welcomed into the home. Prince was then calm when the chance of danger was gone.



and your other comment "not something to post a smiley face about. (That's not an attack, just a call to see this as something more serious)"
That was rude...
You've already focused on the positives from this evaluation. I'm merely pointing out some of the concerns it raises and I am doing so to help Prince, not to attack you. Ignoring the issues or glossing over them isn't doing Prince any favors. I wasn't being rude... I was being blunt. If you want a complete picture of what is behind the problems Prince has had, you will get more information from a second assessment in the home. I do not know if Prince was anxious, fearful, or just mildly stressed by the new environment -- I wasn't there. That's why I chose to use the term "ill-at-ease." A dog who continuously pants through a 30-60 minute evaluation (or however long it was), is not a dog who ever relaxed in the environment. It's also not a dog who appeared to stake any sort of claim in either the environment or the objects presented. If protectiveness of the home and resource guarding are the main issues you are trying to evaluate and address, this doesn't seem to have been the most conducive environment in which to assess those tendencies. I never knocked the behaviorist and I never suggested he or she wasn't a professional... I merely made a suggestion on what a "next step" might be in trying to give Prince the best shot at getting another chance with another family.

Acting scared and truly being scared are two very different things. Dogs absolutely know the difference. So Prince's reaction to the stranger in the presence of a person he had no connection to who was pretending to be scared, and in a home that he took no interest in claiming is a very very serious one. That freezing, staring and possibly growling... that's a warning that an attack is next. How long did they push that reaction? Would he have lunged if they kept it up and didn't change the tone of the interaction? Would he have been quicker to react in his own home with his own family to "protect?" These are the answers that are missing from this assessment... and these are the bits of information that are going to be very important to have when placing him.

The bottom line is that this is a dog with a multiple bite history. Placing him yourself leaves you vulnerable to legal recourse if he bites again.... especially if you present him to a family with this evaluation and imply in any way that this is not a very very serious issue. His problems aren't just going to disappear in a new home... and the stress of losing his family may actually make him more reactive. Very few rescues are going to consider taking him due to their own liability... but there are some out there that may be willing and able to help. People have recommended a couple (mostly in your sister's thread). Hopefully you've contacted them. Placing Prince in a home or with a rescue is going to take serious work. You need to exhaust every opportunity to pinpoint the issues. You need to start training now. You need to get him proper exercise. You need to, at the very least, start to get the situation under control. Otherwise the odds against him are just too steep.

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Last edited by Jersey's Mom; 01-31-2013 at 10:20 PM. Reason: I shouldn't type before coffee.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2013, 12:52 PM
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This poor guy has sure been through an awful lot in his short life. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I did follow the other one (the one that was closed). I admire you and your sister for seeing that he needs a different situation. I admire you for trying to do what's best for Prince and find him an experienced home. I admire that you see there is an issue here, and that you sought out a behaviourist to try to arm yourselves with more information. I think the fact that there is a problem with his behaviour is something you've acknowledged, so I don't think that needs to be called into question at all.

I think we should focus on finding a solution for Prince. I think that his guardians are well aware of his issues- they're the only ones here who've actually seen him in action, after all.

And I'm sorry if I've missed it, but I'm very curious to know if you've followed up with those couple of members on here that were possibly interested in taking him on?
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:14 PM
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This poor guy has sure been through an awful lot in his short life. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I did follow the other one (the one that was closed). I admire you and your sister for seeing that he needs a different situation. I admire you for trying to do what's best for Prince and find him an experienced home. I admire that you see there is an issue here, and that you sought out a behaviourist to try to arm yourselves with more information. I think the fact that there is a problem with his behaviour is something you've acknowledged, so I don't think that needs to be called into question at all.

I think we should focus on finding a solution for Prince. I think that his guardians are well aware of his issues- they're the only ones here who've actually seen him in action, after all.

And I'm sorry if I've missed it, but I'm very curious to know if you've followed up with those couple of members on here that were possibly interested in taking him on?
But that's just it. We are focusing on finding a solution for Prince and setting him up to be successful in his new life. If that single assessment was completely enough, the owners would have been able to email or fax it along to a rescue and Prince would be on his way to a foster home. It's unfortunate, but true, that it seems more needs to be done. The rescues may very well see the same holes in this evaluation as I do -- and filling those in may help.

Why is it so insulting to people that someone would take the time to make suggestions for further steps to help Prince? I didn't understand it in the closed thread and I don't understand it here. Yes, my posts (and that of some others) do have more focus on Prince's issues.... by necessity. His issues are both a major contributing factor to why he needs a new home and his biggest obstacle in finding one. I'm all for cheerleading and moral support, but the solution in this case isn't going to be found if everyone just says "Prince is a great dog, hope he finds a great home," and goes back on their merry way.

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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:37 PM
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Needs a new home Part 2

I think that no one, particularly his guardians, could/should take issue with constructive suggestions. They clearly love him and are trying to do the best they can by him. However, from what I've seen, they appear to be feeling a bit attacked. This is not conducive to assisting with finding a solution for Prince.

It's easy to take things personally in sensitive situations like this. It's also easy to misconstrue people's 'tone' when your reading something. Lets all try to be sensitive to that. I think it would be a real shame if this dog's owners ( and others for that matter) stopped looking to this forum for information and advice.




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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2013, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jersey's Mom View Post
.....

4. I know you don't want to hear this, but Prince is a dangerous dog. He had 2 serious bite incidents. I know part of you is thinking, "but only 2 incidents in 3 years isn't much," but it's the inconsistency of his behavior that can make him more dangerous, rather than less. If you have a dog that lashes out at unfamiliar people and/or dogs every time or protects his food/possessions every time... you're constantly on guard. You arrange his world in such a way as to keep him from being triggered and you never allow yourself to slip in that regard. When you have a dog, like Prince, who is okay most of the time but lashes out occasionally and unpredictably, he becomes a much harder dog to manage and you put the new owners in a situation where they may mistakenly give him just a little too much freedom because he's been so good for so long, and someone gets seriously injured... and Prince likely gets put down. That's tragic for everyone but especially for poor Prince.
.....

..... It matters much more how he acts in his own environment than it does how he acts in an unfamiliar and unsettling one. Then I would take all that information from both assessments and get in touch with some of the rescues suggested in your sister's thread... the rescues that take on harder behavioral cases and have the resources/trainers to help Prince be all the golden he can be. I do not believe that this is a case where you guys should go it alone to screen homes for him. It's too risky for you. It's too risky for the new owners. And perhaps most importantly, it's too risky for Prince. This is not a situation that is going to be resolved by finding a new family on Craig's List. The type of people you need to help him don't look for dogs there. And as much as you love him and as dedicated as you are... you simply don't have the experience needed to properly screen the homes. I know it is discouraging that so many rescues have already said no. Most don't take on a dog with a bite history... but some do. And that's what you need to find. That's the only shot Prince really has.

I'm so sorry that your family has been through so much and that you are having to deal with giving up Prince on top of it all. Good luck.

Julie, Jersey and Oz

Julie, we've never met, but your common sense makes me wish I could meet you. I am very sorry for all that the family has been through also and I admire the sense of responsibility and dedication that they are showing to Prince. I wish that there was an easy answer to this. But clearly there is not...

I have read through these threads and have tried to restrain myself from commenting because I am not someone with rescue experience. I do have to comment at this point because I am someone with experience in the agony of dealing with a Golden who has fear agression problems and who has bitten someone. NO ONE on this forum wants to see a dog euthanized, if there are any rescues out there who specialize in hard cases, then Prince deserves a chance to be saved by these experienced people.

Although it has been mentioned over and over how careful the family needs to be that a mistake with their decision doesn't leave them open to being legally and financially responsible down the road, I would like to mention the one thing that I have seen missing from this conversation. I doubt anyone has wanted to go down this road because the family has clearly been through a lot of emotional distress but I feel it is important to make this point.

If you have a dog who for WHATEVER reason has bitten a person on more than one occasion, then you are aware that he is probably going to bite someone else again in the future if any mistakes are ever made in his management. I love dogs, we all do or we wouldn't be here, but it seems like the most important issue is being missed. Prince is not more important than a human beings safety.

You have a moral obligation not to put this dog in a situation where he is handled by anyone without pretty much professional experience with aggressive dogs. No one likes to mention morals too much but there is no other way to frame this. A dog bite to the face of a person can do an incredible amount of damage. I have a family member who has been hospitalized since New Years Eve because of the extreme damage that was done to her face and mouth from a dog bite. What if Prince's next victim is a child? Could you seriously look at yourself in the mirror knowing a child was hospitalized because you were to weak to make the hard choices for Prince. That was the deciding factor in my life.... I feel a moral obligation for the safety of any child who comes into my house, their parents trust me, I couldn't live with myself if I made a small mistake in managing my dog and he bit a child. It was one of the most difficult things I have ever been through, but after consulting with a behaviorist, my beloved dog went back to live with his breeder with the understanding that he is managed on acreage with no contact with children.

Please do your best for Prince, contact rescues that specialize in serious, last stop cases. But don't make the mistake of putting this dog in the hands of any person or family who isn't professionally equipped to deal with the seriousness of this issue. Human safety is the top priority. You have a moral obligation not to pass on a time bomb to someone else.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2013, 11:39 PM
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I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time. I do not have any experience with rehabing dogs, as Maizy is our first. But I can and will keep Prince, you and your family in my prayers. Best of luck!
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:19 PM
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Hey guys. Prince is on a waiting list for a foster home as we don't want him to have to stay kenneled and will keep him until the correct place is found. Out side of all of that we have had a wonderful week together. We have been playing in the snow non stop, kissing and loving on each other all week. . Like I ALWAYS say thank you for your help, suggestions. And concerns. They have all helped.

While some suggestions are a bit to negative for us...please trust us when we say we will not put prince into the arms of the wrong person. We from this point on do not need anymore "negative" suggestions in he situation we are in. And I kindly ask that if you have something to say that we may get upset about just keep it to your self. We are strong, smart adults and we will do as we see fit for Prince. After all he is our loving baby.

We are not in this forum often as some people's opinions are truly sometime hurtful to how we feel. We have thought of all negative and positive things about our situation. We have fostered, adopted and helped MANY dogs. We do have some sense of mind when it comes to animals.

Right now prince is snuggled up next to me and we are going to watch a movie. It is freezing here so he is a wonderful heating blanket. have a blessed weekend everyone!!
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