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post #61 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 02:02 PM
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Calistar, I also think you are being unfair by painting all rescue groups with such a broad brush of black paint. There are good rescue groups and there are bad ones. There are good groups with a rule or two that may have unintended consequences. The bottom line is they are run by individuals (not the GRCA--not sure why you think they have jurisdiction over totally independent organizations that may not receive monetary support from them). Sometimes these individuals have policies that need tweaking or revisions, and that's where the members and other volunteers can help. I agree with Mylissyk, you should probably volunteer with one of them so you can better understand how they operate and why they make some of these rules. You may not agree with all of them--I certainly didn't and I volunteered for several years with one group I think provides an invaluable service for my area of the state. The majority of these groups have reasonable standards and adoption rules in place. It's just not fair to label all of them with such a bad rap based on what a few groups do wrong. The alternative is much much worse--dogs losing their lives to euthanasia because shelters are overcrowded, or owners throwing them in the garage or back yard, ignoring them and letting them live lonely sad lives. It would be a sadder world without the things these groups accomplish.
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post #62 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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I did not mean to imply the GRCA HAD control over these groups. What I was saying is that it would be better for the breed if the knowledge of the GRCA DID hold some oversight role over rescue prganizations . As far as the randomness of these bad decisions, there seems to be several examples on this forum to indicate that many of these groups are not well run. It just seems that there should be a basic set of adoption guidelines used by all golden rescue organizations that could be amended for area specific situations. The GrCA would seem to be the best place for such overarching guidelines to be developed . That would eliminate the breed specific refusals, refusals based on age of adopting family, refusals based on crate use, etc. I am thinking of something like not allowing digs to be kept outside where the temperatures are sub zero as a location specific amendment.

I am sure many of these organizations are well run. But there seem to be an adequate number of poorly run ones that hide in the shadow of the well run organizations and to criticize people for commenting on those that are poorly run and accuse them of saying that their comments were meant for all rescue organizations is off base. If the poorly run organizations are allowed to hide in the shadows without being called out in fear that correctly run organizations will be offended, then the real losers are the goldens. Bbad behavior on the part of golden rescue organizations is not a place where political correctness should take precedence over the well being of the dog. As such, I really don't think we are as far apart as you seem to think
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post #63 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mylissyk View Post
You are so far off base, and completely insulting. I am a volunteer with Golden rescue, I am certainly not intoxicated with power and no one I work with is either. The rules we use are based on YEARS of experience, not random events, not prejudice, and they were developed by knowledgeable, thoughtful people who go to great lengths to consider all the ramifications before putting the rules in place. They are not arbitrary nor unreasonable.

Instead of insulting and condemning rescue groups for rules you disagree with, get up and go volunteer for one, get inside the process and observe for long enough to see the horror stories that prompted putting the rules in place, before you start calling names and condemning something you obviously know nothing about.
You need to stop wearing your feelings on your sleeve and ask if you would have made any of the decisions referenced here. My comments were not directed at all rescue organizations nor the many good volunteers. My comment on intoxication with power actually was a quote from a rescue volunteer about people in her own organization. Just because it may not apply to you or even your organization does not mean it does not exist. And by acting offended and trying to squelch a discussion of poorly run organizations and poor volunteers undermines the very job you set out to do. remember this is about the dogs...not the people. So unless you have proof that there is absolutely no instance of what people on this thread have complained about, your self indulgent irritation is placing you above the well being of dogs.

You say the rules we use are based on YEARS of experience, not random events, not prejudice, and they were developed by knowledgeable, thoughtful people who go to great lengths to consider all the ramifications before putting the rules in place. They are not arbitrary nor unreasonable. Then how do you explain the wide variation over things like not allowing crates to be used, not adopting to people in their sixties, and not adopting to homes with boxers that we have heard about on this thread. Such variation proves that the knowledge base used for some organizations is limited and based on personal experience which is not widespread or these rules would be more widely held.

It is an interesting concept that you believe you can put rules in place to prevent every horror story. I submit you cannot write a rule that cannot result in abuse or unintended consequences. But you can write an overly restrictive set of rules in trying to prevent every abuse that could have ever been inexperienced or imagined that lack common sense and only accomplish one thing...turning down good adoptive homes.

I speak from the crate perspective. I have been involved in breeding, showing and owning dogs for 25 years. An overwhelming majority of the people I know believe that when a dog is left unattended such as at night or when a family is gone for a while, the dog should be placed in a properly sized kennel and not left to roam the house. This is done in the best interest of the dog so it does not get into something that could harm it when no one is home to help. And lets not forget that dogs were originally pack animals that slept in small protected places and not in open areas. Yet my local rescue group considers plans to have a properly sized crate for a dog to sleep in as grounds for not approving an adoptive home. Such a decision flies in the face of the thinking a majority of dogdom whether show breeders, veterinarians, trainers, or general fans of the breeds. Such rules are far from based on YEARS of experience and the fact they do not represent the majority of thinking in the dog world suggests they were not developed by knowledgeable, thoughtful people who went to great lengths to consider all the ramifications before putting the rules in place.

As I said to Dallas Gold,my comments are not to trash all rescue organizations. They are simply to point out that there are some organizations out there who hide their bad policy making behind the organizations who run their operations correctly. To get upset over those organizations and people being called out is to put the welfare of the breed secondary to the feelings of those that are doing the breed no favors by arbitrarily turning down good homes based on rules that are not widely accepted in the dog world.
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post #64 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 04:16 PM
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Interesting discussion. We worked with a well known rescue who continually told us they had a dog for us and then the lady would say "but we found a better home" for almost a year! We were so fustrated I searched the ads for a puppy even though I knew ours was not an ideal situation for a pup but instead I found Angelina who was 14 months old...it was just meant to be. I called up the Craigslist lady not 5 minutes after she posted the ad, spoke with her for about 30 minutes and she committed to us. Later on, I found out the lady running the rescue was also a breeder...***???

Years later and I rescue Cannella from a private owner who was keeping her in their garage and teaching her nothing. I contacted another rescue which I will name; Homeward Bound, and found their organization to be the most sane one I've ever run across. If I needed to turn her in because she was too much to handle I would be welcomed to adopt a lower energy dog that they would fit to my family. I would not be penalized for working full time which is the main issue (I have a dog walker). I kept Cannella; but will be looking to them when the time comes.

So I think rescues are all different and usually run by their board of directors. One should not label them the same, because they are not but I definately understand the fustration of dealing with them. I've had friends buy puppies because the rescues were so demanding on how they intended to raise their dog (my cousin in PA when she told them they don't allow dogs on the furniture...rescued rejected them).

Oh, and they are not all run from full time working volunteers. Many have retired folk, house wives or even part timers working for them. They are doing what they think is best for the dog; unfortunately it can and does backfire. And with anything run by humans; there will be egos influencing decisions. That is also why it is important to research the rescue before applying...are they truly a non-profit and run by a board etc....

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post #65 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calistar View Post
I did not mean to imply the GRCA HAD control over these groups. What I was saying is that it would be better for the breed if the knowledge of the GRCA DID hold some oversight role over rescue prganizations . As far as the randomness of these bad decisions, there seems to be several examples on this forum to indicate that many of these groups are not well run. It just seems that there should be a basic set of adoption guidelines used by all golden rescue organizations that could be amended for area specific situations. The GrCA would seem to be the best place for such overarching guidelines to be developed . That would eliminate the breed specific refusals, refusals based on age of adopting family, refusals based on crate use, etc. I am thinking of something like not allowing digs to be kept outside where the temperatures are sub zero as a location specific amendment.
Since you were a breeder, I assume you were (and maybe still are) a member in good standing of the GRCA. I suggest you propose the GRCA adopt adoption guidelines to circulate to Golden Rescue organizations. Perhaps seeing what the GRCA suggests might cause some discussion and change at these totally independent groups, that are independently run. My guess is they will go in the big round recycling bin at the ones that are ingrained with their own set of rules and run by those intoxicated with their own power (to use your words). I just don't see practically how the GRCA could "suggest" rules and expect anyone to comply.
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post #66 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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I was a Doberman breeder in California up until the mid-1990's when my job require we relocate. I have not been a DPCA member since then despite continuing to own Dobies. However, i know how these national clubs work. You need to have a reputation to get things done and not having owned a golden until now, I have not been a member of the GRCA.

I agree with what you say about these poorly run rescue groups. but my take would be somewhat different. I would like to see the GRCA develop a set of adoption criteria that they would then require rescue groups rescue groups to utilize in order for the rescue group to receive GRCA certification. The adoption rules would be available on the GRCA website and certified rescue groups could have complaints filed with the GRCA against their certification if they did not follow such rules. I realize that this would be a large undertaking for the GRCA and frankly it may not be totally aligned with their goals of improving breed quality since I would imagine most (but certainly not all) of the rescue dogs do not have traits that the GRCA wants perpetuated. This is not an issue that an outsider is going to be able to gain much traction with inside the GRCA given the large amount of work and time required to implement the program. Alternatively, if the better run rescue groups could start a certifying oversight organization, that might be an answer. But again a lot of work for an organization that is essentially staffed by only volunteers. Sadly, these less qualified rescue groups are likely to continue to operate based on their own personal prejudices simply due to the effort required to police them. Still, forums like this provide an outlet for criticism of the inappropriate behavior of some rescue groups and may gradually bring about change. If nothing else it will help educate the public about the possible range of outcomes when dealing with a rescue groups.

One more idle thought. The unwillingness of many rescue groups to accept the evaluation of homes for suitability by rescue groups outside their area, speaks volumes about what these groups already understand about the quality of some of their supposedly peer groups in other geographic locations.
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post #67 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calistar View Post
I was a Doberman breeder in California up until the mid-1990's when my job require we relocate. I have not been a DPCA member since then despite continuing to own Dobies. However, i know how these national clubs work. You need to have a reputation to get things done and not having owned a golden until now, I have not been a member of the GRCA.

I agree with what you say about these poorly run rescue groups. but my take would be somewhat different. I would like to see the GRCA develop a set of adoption criteria that they would then require rescue groups rescue groups to utilize in order for the rescue group to receive GRCA certification. The adoption rules would be available on the GRCA website and certified rescue groups could have complaints filed with the GRCA against their certification if they did not follow such rules. I realize that this would be a large undertaking for the GRCA and frankly it may not be totally aligned with their goals of improving breed quality since I would imagine most (but certainly not all) of the rescue dogs do not have traits that the GRCA wants perpetuated. This is not an issue that an outsider is going to be able to gain much traction with inside the GRCA given the large amount of work and time required to implement the program. Alternatively, if the better run rescue groups could start a certifying oversight organization, that might be an answer. But again a lot of work for an organization that is essentially staffed by only volunteers. Sadly, these less qualified rescue groups are likely to continue to operate based on their own personal prejudices simply due to the effort required to police them. Still, forums like this provide an outlet for criticism of the inappropriate behavior of some rescue groups and may gradually bring about change. If nothing else it will help educate the public about the possible range of outcomes when dealing with a rescue groups.

One more idle thought. The unwillingness of many rescue groups to accept the evaluation of homes for suitability by rescue groups outside their area, speaks volumes about what these groups already understand about the quality of some of their supposedly peer groups in other geographic locations.
I guess I don't see how GRCA could force a totally independent rescue group to agree to do anything different. It would create more paperwork and oversight. Why would they do it? I wouldn't if I were running a group and receiving enough through donations to sustain my operation without needing anything from GRCA. True, they do offer grants to rescue groups, but if my group were successful and not dependent on these grants to operate, what is the incentive to submit to more oversight and regulation? It means more volunteer time, and volunteers are already overworked. None of the golden groups I know have paid staff, but rely solely on volunteer time. I just think you are chasing windmills, to borrow from Don Quixote.

I've actually been asked to evaluate an adoptive home by an out of area group so I don't understand your final idle thought, insofar as my own personal experience with rescue work is concerned. I also know the local group here adopted a dog to someone in El Paso, several hundred miles away and asked another group to find a volunteer to do the home inspection. Again, not all groups are so inflexible as to not look at those outside their geographic areas.
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post #68 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-17-2012, 11:32 PM
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Again, sign up to volunteer, foster, transport, home visit, etc., for a rescue organization and find out from the inside why things are done the way they are. You will find out that things are drastically different than the narrow view you hold.

If you really want to rail against something that is detrimental to dogs, start blasting puppy mills with the same venom you display toward rescue, at least puppy mills deserve it.

Which rescue group told you they would not adopt to a home that intended to crate the dog? I would very interested in contacting them to ask if that is their policy.

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post #69 of 83 (permalink) Old 01-18-2012, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mylissyk View Post
Again, sign up to volunteer, foster, transport, home visit, etc., for a rescue organization and find out from the inside why things are done the way they are. You will find out that things are drastically different than the narrow view you hold.

If you really want to rail against something that is detrimental to dogs, start blasting puppy mills with the same venom you display toward rescue, at least puppy mills deserve it.

Which rescue group told you they would not adopt to a home that intended to crate the dog? I would very interested in contacting them to ask if that is their policy.
Again I am sure your perspective is that from that of a well run organization. But that gives you little insight on how a poorly run operation might conduct it's business. I resent your calling my view narrow just because our experiences differ.

Your own arrogance is showing when you say that you want to call my local rescue group to find out if the crate policy I portrayed is actually their policy. Where do you dare get the arrogance to assume my command of the English language is so insufficient that I cannot understand when I am directly told that they will not approve our home if we crate our dogs at night or when we are gone? Your reaction is basically accusing me of not telling the truth despite any evidence to the contrary and implying for it to be true you have to hear it with your own ears. So what if you do hear it as I portrayed it? What difference would it make to you? If you really were interested in finding that out as opposed to simply being insulting, you could just have looked at my profile and see where I am located and make the call yourself. But don't bother to respond with your results if you cannot be a little more civil and less arrogant with your tone. I know what I was told and have e-mails to back it up.

With regard to puppy mills, this is a rescue forum so this is not the place for that discussion.

Again, I think you are personalizing criticism of poorly run golden rescue organizations which clearly exist with no one ever having directed the criticism at you specifically. Makes me wonder however if your reaction does not indicate that the criticism hits close to home!

Last edited by Calistar; 01-18-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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post #70 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-11-2013, 09:35 PM
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We ended up going to a breeder rather than dealing with the rescues. We tried. Anyway, here they are a year later..
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