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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:36 AM
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I'm not sure where your getting the parents are underage. The parents all fall within the AKC guidelines SECTION 5..No.dog.or.litter.out.of.a.dam.under. eight. (8). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. or. by. a. sire. under. seven. (7). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. will. be. registered. unless. the. application. for. registration. shall. be. accompanied.by.an.affidavit.or.evidence.which.shal l.prove. the.f.act.to.the.satisfaction.of.The.American.Kenn el.Club.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:23 AM
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Wow 5 litters just within the past couple of weeks!!
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:25 AM
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"We test our dogs temperament with certified children so they can be around any age of person"

So just double checking, by testing them around "certified" children that means the dog can then be around elderly people too? Who knew!
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeee View Post
I'm not sure where your getting the parents are underage. The parents all fall within the AKC guidelines SECTION 5..No.dog.or.litter.out.of.a.dam.under. eight. (8). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. or. by. a. sire. under. seven. (7). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. will. be. registered. unless. the. application. for. registration. shall. be. accompanied.by.an.affidavit.or.evidence.which.shal l.prove. the.f.act.to.the.satisfaction.of.The.American.Kenn el.Club.
So, just so I understand, based on this rule designed from a record keeping (not ethical or health) standpoint and aplied to all breeds across the board (no matter when maturity happens) you think it is alright for an 8 month old bitch to be bred?

I never said that the parents are underage. Though yes in some cases they are. Prime example is Double B Diesel. He was born 1/5/08 his mother was born 11/21/2006. So she would have been bred before she even turned 1 and whelp at 14 months old. My girl is right at 14 months right now. She is not done growing and still has a puppy mind and puppy behaviors. I can not even fathom that someone would bred a baby.

And where am I getting my information on when a dog is or is not underaged? From our national club that is tasked with protecting our breed and writing our standard. So in the US, the organization that decides what a Golden is and how we should act ethically as costodians of this wonderful breed of dog.

If you have never read the GRCA's Code of Ethics before, I would suggest you take the time. It is so valuable to understand what this dedicated organization has put down to protect our beloved breed. I have included a direct quote on breeding for you and here is the link Golden Retriever Club of America - The GRCA Club

"Specific Guidelines

I. Dogs selected for breeding should:

Be of temperament typical of the breed, i.e., stable, friendly, trainable, and willing to work. Temperament is of utmost importance to the breed and must never be neglected or altered from the Standard.
Be of conformation typical of the breed.

Be in overall good health, and be physically and mentally mature (which is generally not until two years of age).
Possess examination reports and certifications as outlined below to evaluate and document status concerning recommended screening examinations; and these reports should be publicly available in an approved online database. Approved online databases include registries under management of veterinary professional associations; registries maintained by non-profit organizations with veterinary staff or advisory boards; and university-based registries under veterinary advisement. U.S. registries should be used for dogs residing in the U.S., unless previously evaluated (as in III below) prior to importation.
Hip and elbow certifications from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) prior to its discontinuation in 2012 are acceptable for dogs residing in the U.S., providing the dog was 24 months of age or older at the time of the examination. Reports should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Submission of abnormal information to the OFA online database is encouraged.

II. The following reports are acceptable for dogs residing in the U.S.:


Hips – a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. Since PennHIP results are not automatically published, these results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Elbows – a report from the OFA at 24 months of age or older.
Hearts – a report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Cardiology), at 12 months of age or older. Report should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Eyes – a report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology. Examinations should be done within 12 months prior to a breeding, and results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Dogs that produce offspring should continue to have ophthalmology examinations on a yearly basis for their lifetime, and if the findings permit recertification, the results should continue to be recorded in an approved online database.
For frozen semen from deceased dogs, either an ophthalmology examination within 18 months of the date of death, or status that was in compliance with the Code of Ethics in effect at the time of the dog’s death, will be considered current."


Not really sure where you are located but just in case or just for further info, The Kennel Club(UK) will not allow registration for a litter if the "The dam was under one year old at the time of mating". Again, keep in mind these rules are made as a bare minimum (not the ideal) and are made to apply to all breeds even though maturity ranges are dependent on breed.

I would not consider any one breeding a bitch under 2 for my breeder. I would say anyone breeding them under 1 and especially at 8 months is so far from being a reputable breeder that to me it is abuse. Golden girls do not mature mentally until around two, sometimes longer. It is not fair to ask a puppy to raise puppies. Also, it is not fair to the puppies who will likely have a poor role model of dog behavior and may suffer behaviorally from this lack their whole life.
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Last edited by LJack; 12-31-2012 at 04:19 AM.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 08:44 AM
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Since, I made the underage comment... I agree with Ljack, my opinion is based on GRCA recommendations for breeding. The AKC is a registering body that governs parentage, not whether or not the breeding dog has appropriate clearances. Years ago, I came across a falsified OFA certificate for a local golden retriever. I contacted the OFA, who then wanted a copy to send the owner a letter. When I asked if I should contact the AKC, the head of OFA made it very clear to me that the only way AKC would get involved was if there were issues with parentage.

Just because a puppy or young bitch can get pregnant, it doesn't mean she is really old enough to be bred.
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeee View Post
I'm not sure where your getting the parents are underage. The parents all fall within the AKC guidelines SECTION 5..No.dog.or.litter.out.of.a.dam.under. eight. (8). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. or. by. a. sire. under. seven. (7). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. will. be. registered. unless. the. application. for. registration. shall. be. accompanied.by.an.affidavit.or.evidence.which.shal l.prove. the.f.act.to.the.satisfaction.of.The.American.Kenn el.Club.
For Goldens the basic health clearances that make up part of an ethical breeding can only be completed at 24 months. Hence, we often use the term "underage" if one or both parents is under 24 months. The AKC guidelines represent a much, much lower bar, since the AKC isn't a breed club but rather an organization that registers pedigrees.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mobeee View Post
I second your comments above. Double B Golden puppies are adorable and well taken care of. The parents of our pup and others that were on site were well mannered and beautiful. The owner and her children were delightful. We have friends in Fort Collins that have purchased pups from them and they are amazing looking dogs and healthy. I would highly recommend this breeder. If you are looking for this breed it would be worth your wild to give them a look. I wanted to take them all home but could only get one.
Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder; having full health clearances for several generations on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is objective. Delightful children- subjective. Having attained verifiable titles like CDX, American Champion, and SH that show the dogs stand side by side with peers and contribute to the breed? Less subjective. I hope all breeders adhere to the GRCA code of ethics or the KC's in England.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowtea View Post
"We test our dogs temperament with certified children so they can be around any age of person"

So just double checking, by testing them around "certified" children that means the dog can then be around elderly people too? Who knew!
I didn't know children could be certified either... although I have three here who I'm pretty sure are "certifiable"
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:27 AM
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The KC now have added to the Golden Retriever specifically that no Bitch should be bred from under 18 months of age and the upper limit is 8 years No bitches can have more than 4 litters and no more than 2 caesarians. Annef
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