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Any experience with breeder, Don Graves "Super Goldens"?

37K views 97 replies 27 participants last post by  HiTideGoldens 
#1 ·
This is my first post. These forums have been an incredible wealth of knowledge over the past month. I am wondering about the breeder Don Graves, in Fort Ann, NY. Does anyone have an input they can give me. Thank you!
 
#2 ·
Have you looked him up on K9data.com? You can search for "owner" or search for "breeder" as a good starting place.
 
#3 ·
A quick look at the OFFA site shows a variety of clearances, but if you had the names of the parents of a liter, we could determine if those dogs have all their clearances.
 
#5 ·
FYI, Pennhip clearances are not rated by fair, good, or excellent. "Bugatti" who appears to be the sire of all the pups is listed as PennHip excellent. In fact, the dogs are rated by their distraction index and then ranked as a percentile for their specific breed. Calling a PennHip rating excellent(an OFA designation) is like comparing apples to oranges. Further, on the website, they do not state that he has clear elbows. And on one of the 4 bitches, there is no mention of clear elbows. Depending on what you believe, PennHip is one correct way to rate dogs' hips. But do not lose sight that elbows must be clear, too. Additionally, check to see if eyes are cleared annually and that cardiac clearances were done by a cardiologist after one year of age.
 
#6 ·
FYI, Pennhip clearances are not rated by fair, good, or excellent. "Bugatti" who appears to be the sire of all the pups is listed as PennHip excellent. In fact, the dogs are rated by their distraction index and then ranked as a percentile for their specific breed. Calling a PennHip rating excellent(an OFA designation) is like comparing apples to oranges. Further, on the website, they do not state that he has clear elbows. And on one of the 4 bitches, there is no mention of clear elbows. Depending on what you believe, PennHip is one correct way to rate dogs' hips. But do not lose sight that elbows must be clear, too. Additionally, check to see if eyes are cleared annually and that cardiac clearances were done by a cardiologist after one year of age.
Ditto. I had only taken a real quick look at the site. There are several "red flags". There are so many of these breeders advertising over the internet that they seem to learn some of the "right" things to say, yet a closer look more often than not proves that they really are not walking the walk.
 
#7 ·
The eye clearances on the father and mothers of both of the litters are out of date (the females were from 2008 and the male from 2009). Bugatti, the father actually does have a OFA hip clearance, it is a good, so he might also have a pennhip score, but the OFA is good.
 
#10 ·
Actually, Bugatti does have hip and elbow clearances... just not updated on the website. Doesn't have a current eye clearance on OFA......
 
#12 ·
I have purchased from SuperGolden

I have a female, Kara Belli that we purchased from Don Graves at SuperGolden. I would without hesitation buy from him again. Kara Belli is the sweetest, best personality of a dog I have ever seen. When i brought her to our vets and gave her a copy of all the paperwork Don gave me, she said she has never seen this much history/paperwork given and was extremely impressed. Don is fantastic to deal with and two years later, I have no hesitation to email him with questions and he answers very quickly and has even offered to have me bring Kara Belli up if i want to learn how to groom her myself. His Customer Service is second to none.
 
#14 ·
I have a female, Kara Belli that we purchased from Don Graves at SuperGolden. I would without hesitation buy from him again. Kara Belli is the sweetest, best personality of a dog I have ever seen. When i brought her to our vets and gave her a copy of all the paperwork Don gave me, she said she has never seen this much history/paperwork given and was extremely impressed. Don is fantastic to deal with and two years later, I have no hesitation to email him with questions and he answers very quickly and has even offered to have me bring Kara Belli up if i want to learn how to groom her myself. His Customer Service is second to none.

I knew a very, very sweet Golden Retriever with a fantastic personality. I showed her to 3 majors, needing a single to finish. She turned two, went for her clearances, and it was discovered that she had SAS.
Good personality and sound health do not always go hand in hand.
Oh, she also had a very impressive history and paperwork.

By the way, welcome to the forum. Nice first post.
 
#15 ·
Thank you, but reading all the information, it feels (at least to me) that you are criticizing Don and not giving him a chance. I found him to be very informative, was able to answer questions and his guarantee is wonderful. I have to tell you, i spent alot of time at his house, he showed me his setup and was not hiding anything that i could see. My Kara Belli is 2 years old and the one question people keep asking us "is she as sweet as she looks" our answer is sweeter. We have had many people comment how good her personality, mannerism are. This doesn't come from just any breeder.

Before we decided to get a golden, i put a down payment down on a lhasa apso. Imagine my surprise when i get a call that the pup had died, and did i want a different one. When i called the wife, she told me she would not dwell on the past. Needless to say, i got my money back and will never go back again.

I owned a purebred Lhasa Apso before and i can tell you that you can have all the right credentials but not have a great dog. I am more than pleased with Super Golden and would purchase another one from him in a heart beat. I just find some of these comments hard to believe that Don said this. His dogs are beautiful (and my girls dad was not from Bugatti).

I could never compete with your knowledge but I do pride myself as a good judge of dogs. I just met a person the other day that the breeder that he used, will not allow you to pick your dog, this breeder picks the dog for you. I guess different strokes for different folks.

I think this forum is great but i am concerned it could be a bashing without cause.
 
#16 ·
Thank you, but reading all the information, it feels (at least to me) that you are criticizing Don and not giving him a chance. I found him to be very informative, was able to answer questions and his guarantee is wonderful. I have to tell you, i spent alot of time at his house, he showed me his setup and was not hiding anything that i could see.
I think this forum is great but i am concerned it could be a bashing without cause.
I read through this entire thread. I didn't think anyone was "bashing" the breeder, they were just giving facts about what they discovered about the SuperGoldens breeding program, and I think that is was the OP was asking for help with.
 
#17 ·
dawn, Many knowledgable breeders pick the dog for you as they are with the pups 24/7 and have a better insight into temperament than someone who sees them in 20 minute "vignettes".
 
#23 ·
picking dog



you are better than me, I spent a long time at Don's and we got down on the floor and played with the dogs and when it was time for them to go to sleep, only one stayed. We like to think that she picked us. I would never let someone pick my pup for me. It would be different if you had a long standing relationship with the breeder but if you didn't, i would think you would want to be a part of it. That's just me of course.:wavey:

Happy Easter Beagle Day!
 
#18 ·
My first 3 goldens were "picked" for me and I can't complain. The following 6, I picked myself as I was their breeder.
 
#20 ·
As a good judge of dogs, then, Dawn, you are familiar with the breed standard? And also understand the importance of genetic health clearances in a vertical pedigree. Mr. Super Goldens, it would seem, does not.

As a breeder, I have a number of respected breeders evaluate my litters to offer objective opinions, and I also temperament/aptitude test them in order to place the right puppy in the right home. I DO select the puppy for the owner. As do most all of the reputable, responsible breeders that I know. And, several of the dogs that I have bought were chosen for me by the breeder (including the dog in my avatar). I've never had a complaint, and the breeders knew that their puppies were going to the right home for them, as do I when I send a puppy that I have bred to a new home.
 
#22 ·
If they can afford the "new state of the art kennel" they can afford elbow clearance. As far as waist of time they are done at the same time as hips that he claims he does on his dogs. Stating Champion bloodline is easy....they are usually in the line somewhere. Even pet store/puppy mill pups can list that discription. He doesn't Champion or title in some venue his own dogs and that is something I would want to see. The discription of shipping makes me think he is just a high volume breeder who does not takes a lot of time to check where he is selling his puppies. If they are this serious about breeding why cut corners?
 
#25 ·
I have had owners who thought the pup "picked them." In reality, the pup was likely in a different phase of the sleep cycle from the others. I find that if people think that they need that "Hollywood moment" where everyone falls in love, they really aren't people who can learn from me and the 20 plus years I have studied dog behavior. My first golden was a breeder reject. My second golden was chosen by her breeder for me. My third golden I wanted because she had similar genes to golden # 2. Goldens # 2& 3 were bought sight unseen based on breeder recommendation and pedigrees and clearances. I would never let someone who has seen my pups in short spurts tell me how they were going to pick a pup. I sleep with my pups, I take them out, I sit in the X-pens with them and watch and observe them. Who knows them better than me????
 
#30 · (Edited)
This is a great comment. Working so much with pet dog people, I do hear lengthy descriptions of that hollywood moment, usually followed by a sense of betrayal that the puppy doesnt "like" them as much anymore.

I do think though, that there can be a feeling of rightness with one pup more than another. With Finn, it was his gorgeous movement, which continues to lift my heart even as he is an aging dog now like it did at 6 and 8 weeks before he came home. I had to beg and plead for him.
 
#29 ·
I'm very sympathetic to this way of thinking, and I've never taken a pup sight unseen from a breeder. At the same time, I've always worked hand in hand with the breeder to work out which pup was the best fit. The breeder knows the pups best and spends more time with them. Ideally, the breeder has been keeping notes, having other professionals evaluate structure and temperament, etc. My feelings on structure and personality are important, but I only get to see a teeny slice of time relative to what the breeder has seen, so the pup that seems the most energetic or drivey or independent for that hour might just be feeling his beans relative to other pups who actually have more of the qualities I'm looking for.
I thought it could be said.... our first three goldens were those we handpicked. Charmy was immediately loved because he wrapped his paws around my mom's arm and buried his face into her neck. He was scared to death and had confidence issues as he grew up because of poor early socialization, but my mom thought he was holding on to her and telling her he wanted to come home with us.

Sammy and Danny were both picked because they exhibited completely opposite behaviors when we first saw them - and we had decided that we wanted a confident and well-adjusted puppy. They were both puppies that left the herd to go off and do their own little adventures with a confident swagger of their stubby puppy tails. And that independance meant they were a little difficult to train and keep contained. While they bonded with us, it was not a very deep bond that meant they wanted to please us all the time. :)

Jacks was the only one I got differently. I told the breeder I wanted first a family pet and I also wanted to compete in obedience with him. The breeder showed me a particular litter upon hearing that. I did not have my choice as to a puppy, because there were only two males and somebody else had first pick. But the breeder assured me that I would get the dog I wanted. So I paid more attention to the mom then the puppies on visits - even as I oogled them, as I did not want to bond with any of them in particular prior to finding out which would be mine.

I fell in love with our pup when I officially met him. He was this FAT wiggling golden ball of fur who was frantic to get from the arms of the breeder's daughter and into my arms. :) And what the breeder said about the obedience and attitude of the puppies from that litter were exactly true, and I have the adult dog I hoped to have. He will do well in obedience competition, but more important than anything else, he is a perfect dog at home and fit very easily with our family.

I just wanted to say that if you do not have a pick in the litter and are going by the breeder selecting a puppy for you, it definitely does work out if your breeder knows his dogs. And you will bond with the puppy you bring home anyway.
 
#32 · (Edited)
"Super" Goldens.

Super - surpassing all or most others of its kind.


Oh. How would one possibly know that this is true, when one does notparticipate in any competitive venue in which to be judged as supassing all or most others?

How would one possibly know that this is true, when one does not do all clearances in which to be certified as genetically cleared at all, let alone supassing all or most others?


Perhaps these dogs are faster than speeding bullets, more powerful than locomotives and can leap tall buildings in a single bound?​

 
#35 ·
I just got my puppy, Zeus, from Don. I wouldn't hesitate to go to him again. My puppy is well socialized, the facility is clean and the dogs have plenty of room. He does provide clearances for hip/elbow/heart. I think his website could use some better updating, but I saw the computer that he uses (or rarely uses according to him) and it's not up to par at all. I think it's because he's spending so much time with the dogs, the computer stuff can fall by the wayside.
 
#36 ·
I do not have a facility. The pups I,breed are raised in my kitchen. I think that that is superior to any other husbandry....
 
#40 ·
I dont understand eye clearances..... They are done yearly, for a few years they could be fine and then not be fine (?) So, if I bought a puppy two years previous to the bad eye cert. I am SOL because the parent has bad eyes now.
 
#42 ·
Short answer: sort of.

Long answer: Some health checks can help reduce the incidence of a problem in the long term even if they can't help with litters that are already born. Some problems (like PU in the eyes) don't typically show up until after an animal—especially a bitch—is past breeding age. However, catching it after a litter or even after a whole breeding career helps you eliminate it in later generations. It would be nice if eyes, like hips and elbows, showed 99.9% of their problems by the time an animal is two years old. Sadly, they don't, so the best bet is to do yearly CERFs through an animal's whole life and then use the results to make decisions about later generations.

So if you're buying a puppy from a breeder who is religious about CERFs, you're benefiting from the CERFs done on grandparents and great grandparents, even though CERFing the parents themselves will only catch the most severe, early-onset problems, which you'd obviously still want to do.
 
#41 ·
Eyes need to be checked annually as they change. Even eyes that have been cleared can produce pups with problems...
 
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