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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2011, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tippykayak View Post
No matter how carefully a breeder screens their stock, there are going to be dogs with health problems. The real question is how careful and ethical the breeder is and what the rate of problems is. Dichi, by all accounts, does wonderfully in the health department.

The fact that Flora has some issues isn't a black mark on Dichi, and Kim has always been super careful to say so. Bilateral LPs, particularly when they've shown up in two dogs from the same litter, are clearly caused by a congenital issue, but ALL breeders have congenital problems in some of their dogs, and they strive to improve them. Nobody produces consistently perfect litters with 0% incidences of the major problems in the breed. All lines have some combination of joint issues, cancer issues, eye issues, etc. Ideally, Dichi has noted the appearance of these LPs and will take it into account when continuing on with related dogs.

As Linda so effectively put it, the existence of a problem in a breeder's dog speaks more to the breeder's honesty. Kim doesn't receive (so far as I know) threats from Dichi not to talk about issues with Flora, and there's been no attempt to hide or suppress the information. Just like when LJilly's Tango came up lame with ED, even though she came from Topbrass, one of the most successful and influential field breeders in the breed's history. LJilly's open discussion of Tango's problems doesn't reflect poorly on Topbrass. In fact, the way they handled it (refunding Tango's purchase to help pay for her surgery) says much more about them than the ED itself. My Jax has distichias and mismarks, even though his breeder has never (to my knowledge) bred a mismarked dog or one with distichias. I knew that going in (which is not a luxury you always get with a congenital problem), so we worked it out together before I even took him.

So Flora's problems are no black eye to the breeder nor to other Dichi owners. We never know exactly how much of a problem is congenital and how much is environmental, but as long as we're telling the truth to the best of our abilities, I don't think it's out of line to be open about our dogs' problems.

And I think LJilly's earlier response was a pitch-perfect act as a moderator. It's her responsibility to help all voices be heard and to help prevent personal conflicts from disrupting the board, and she has done so quite impartially and kindly.
Very well said, Brian!
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2011, 02:27 PM
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I should add on top of what I've already said: I would be very bummed if Gretchen left over this thread or these disagreements.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2011, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tippykayak View Post
No matter how carefully a breeder screens their stock, there are going to be dogs with health problems. The real question is how careful and ethical the breeder is and what the rate of problems is. Dichi, by all accounts, does wonderfully in the health department.


Thank you, Brian - and yes, Dichi does wonderfully in the health department. They have been breeding for more than 30 years. They genuinely care for their dogs.

Dick Reents is very talkative and proud of their dogs and wants any prospective owner to know everything there is to know. Can you imagine someone walking the property with you - showing you where the dogs live - introducing you to every single dog? When we were there - and I have two dogs from Dichi so I've been through this experience twice - he talked about their personalities, physical attributes, health, accomplishments. This is their passion. The work they do so resonates with my heart. I thought when I met them - yes, if I were a breeder, this is the only way I would do it. These are very good people, Brian, and it absolutely breaks my heart to read what I have read for almost two years now. What is even more disappointing is that breeders represented here - who I feel have very strong breeding programs and are right up there with the Reents and the best of the best - they don't take a stand for their own colleagues. Why is that? Breeders who know them and are in the same region - am I so old fashioned? Why don't people show loyalty - especially when someone is worthy of your loyalty. That, is my opinion.

I understand the disappointment - but I have lived this, too - right here. It's the totality of the statements made - and my own personal interaction, that has made it hostile for me to participate.

I am a kind person - I do believe most people see that. I myself have had a Schutzund bred Shepherd that had to be put down and yet, I moved on - a long time ago - and not once did I ever mention the breeder's name - because I will never know what went wrong. We had a behaviorist tell us our Shepherd was basically mentally ill. We went to court three times for that pup. I never asked for a replacement dog - reimbursement - or even an apology. My gosh, all we wanted was a normal life with him - I would have done anything to have that - anything - absolutely - and nothing else mattered.

I say a silent prayer of gratitude for Dick and Chris and our Goldens - yes, our lives have been richly blessed by them.


Thanks again - for your kind words and your wisdom. And to those who have written me - thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for just being supportive, whether you agree or not - it doesn't matter. You were very kind.

You know, we cannot control what happens in our lives - but we can choose how we view those events - we can choose our thoughts and the energy we put into those thoughts. I truly believe this.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:11 PM
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Thank you, Brian - and yes, Dichi does wonderfully in the health department. They have been breeding for more than 30 years. They genuinely care for their dogs.
I don't think that's ever been disputed. Kim's experience and yours contrast pretty significantly. I would so like to believe that your experience and Kim's, no matter how far apart they are, can both coexist on GRF. I really believe we all learn from contrasts like that, even when they're extreme. The world is full of irreconcilable differences, but I think we can rise above those differences without compromising our principles and believe the best of the other person, as you seem to be trying to do. And our Goldens help us believe in the best in others, which makes GRF a special place for me.

And I believe that LJilly has really tried to make a welcoming space for that big divide in her post, even though in your eyes it seemed to side with Kim. I do know her from "real" life, so I'll admit to being biased in favor of her good character, since I've seen it displayed countless times. I think she (and I know I) would prefer that you stay and provide a counterpoint to what Kim's saying. Hearing both perspectives, even though they contradict on a few points, is better for all than just hearing one perspective.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:32 PM
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I don't think that's ever been disputed. Kim's experience and yours contrast pretty significantly. I would so like to believe that your experience and Kim's, no matter how far apart they are, can both coexist on GRF. I really believe we all learn from contrasts like that, even when they're extreme. The world is full of irreconcilable differences, but I think we can rise above those differences without compromising our principles and believe the best of the other person, as you seem to be trying to do. And our Goldens help us believe in the best in others, which makes GRF a special place for me.

And I believe that LJilly has really tried to make a welcoming space for that big divide in her post, even though in your eyes it seemed to side with Kim. I do know her from "real" life, so I'll admit to being biased in favor of her good character, since I've seen it displayed countless times. I think she (and I know I) would prefer that you stay and provide a counterpoint to what Kim's saying. Hearing both perspectives, even though they contradict on a few points, is better for all than just hearing one perspective.

Brian, you're just good - so wise - so level headed. Again, thank you.

I have admired you and Lilly - from afar - for the three years I have been on this forum. I have nothing but the utmost respect - even if I do feel there was a bit of a blur in the roles - but its hard to shush a woman like me - in all honesty, I cannot say I could have done any better. And this - I do believe, Brian.

". . . Goldens help us believe in the best in others"
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:34 PM
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woops - edited the same post thinking it wasn't there.
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