Breeders who have gotten criticism here: - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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Breeders who have gotten criticism here:

You will never find speculation or gossip about your breeding program. The respected breeders and breed experts you see posting here are people who have made Golden Retrievers and their future a focus for their own lives and who share the information about breeding programs lacks and plusses here freely. Because posts cannot be removed, it does you no good to send private emails, threats, whatever to the posters. It does not bode well for your sources of health information when you have your vet post here that we're being mean to you. Or worse BE a vet yourself and use that as a sales tool when you're mixing breeds, reading your own rads, doing your own cardiac clearances and eye exams...
And really, the thing you should take away? Do your clearances. You are in the US, so do them as the AKC parent club GRCA says to do them. If you absolutely need to do BVA clearances or PH, then send them to OFA so your buyers know they are real clearances and not forgeries. Either way- do HIPS- no prelims on breeding animals. Prelims done in order to breed an animal prior to 24 months are not adequate. When we look at your pedigree and see not one title in 3 generations, we know you are not doing prelims to be sure it's a wise investment of money to show your dog. You're doing them to pull the wool over your buyers' eyes and get a litter bred early, before your animal is even fully mature himself. ELBOWS- also 24 months, same reasons as above. And when we see hips and no elbows, or vice versa, we know either you are in a dark closet somewhere, or your vet is, or (and likely its this one) your dog has failed the missing one. Elbows have been a part of the GRCA Code of Ethics for 20 years or so. HEART- done by a cardiologist. Sent in to OFA (which will cost you all of $12 to have verified by OFA to be real and not a forgery) and EYES also sent in to OFA - again, $12 first year, $8 after. This also is to be sure you are not forging eye clearances. Do eyes every 12 months.
Also, when we see your bitch's sire and dam are both ICT affecteds, or some other scenario that should tell you to do the DNA test, and you are breeding to a dog we can clearly see is a carrier, we're going to point this out to the innocents who come here for advice as to how reliable what you are saying is.
When we see on AKC you are lying about doing all health clearances, we are going to point that out too. And if we have time, we are going to report your ad to AKC because you are hurting AKC as well as the breed when you do this. When you claim GRCA membership to AKC in order to get a higher posting rank, you can bet your bottom dollar you'll get reported for that as well.
Are we the breed police? No. But when you deceive others, and are charging the same amount for your puppies that good breeders charge, you can bet no one is going to overlook an inquiry on you and say to themselves, 'oh, this gal has been breeding for 30 years, she must be ok'....not going to happen. Just because you have been doing something for decades does not mean you are doing it well. A good breeder learns every day.
A function of the internet is that information is shared and if for no other reason than your reputation downline, it would be a good idea to do the breed you claim to love (for you ALL claim great love of Goldens as your motivator for breeding them) and do the future a favor and stop breeding dogs if you can't use the tools available to you to do it minimally well. Sooner or later, someone will come here and ask about you and we will tell them about you based not on you as a person but on the publicly verifiable information anyone can uncover if they are skilled. It's wrong to ask puppy people to learn a new language to do their due diligence, and the people here who are fluent in the language can fill in the gaps for them.
You, criticized breeder, should learn from the scrutiny you received here. Don't get childish about it, it is the truth and uncovering the truth should make you want to do things an accepted way. If scrutiny tears you up, then breed in a way that removes the ammunition. We report good things, too. It makes us happy to be able to say 'go with confidence' about a breeder. And we do need lots of good breeders, so please do things right.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:59 AM
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BRAVO!! Thank you for your continued advocacy and efforts for Golden Retrievers - and - for your ongoing work to assist others in making the best possible decisions about puppies!
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 11:56 AM
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Excellent excellent post!!!

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 03:45 PM
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Buyers Beware-Trust should be earned

This is a lesson that just reading the breeder posts can illustrate. Read post after post where buyers think they found full health certifications only to find serious holes and deficiencies.

Dear puppy buyers, breeders with full health certifications are rare. Sadly bad breeders are plentiful and you are their prey. They want your money. Bad breeders know health is important to you puppy buyer but it really is not to them. They also know you might not be all that knowledge about health certifications anyway so they take advantage. They claim heath certifications that don't exist. They are counting on you to not check or even know how to check.

Puppy buyers, if is health is important to you, don't take any breeder at their word. Make them prove it. In the US ask them to send you the link on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals for their dogs health certifications or get the parents names and search them on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals yourself. If they are all there, great then start giving your trust.

If you see anything less than hips, elbows, heart by a Cardiologist and an eye certification dated within the last 12 months, ask them the tough questions about why you don't see them. If they are not there and this breeder has touted full clearances, they are not being honest. You are their mark, their target so, puppy buyers beware and make breeders earn your trust.

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 04:09 PM
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As a consumer I am really happy to have found this forum. The information all of you provide is priceless. You not only provide support but show how and where to look this information up and what it means. You also teach us the important questions to ask the breeder when looking for a puppy. I'm still new at this but have to admit I look up clearances every time someone comes on the forum looking for information, simply a way for me to learn. I can't thank you enough for the lessons.

My take away from all this is to remember you are simply the messengers... you provide guidance, you don't create the data. Thank you so much for the time and dedication given so freely.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 04:14 PM
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Loved your post, and am curious who it is about, but want to take issue with your first sentence.

Originally Posted by Prism Goldens View Post
You will never find speculation or gossip about your breeding program.
This place is notorious for piling on and trashing posters, including breeders. And I have seen some very good and ethical breeders be falsely piled on and called out. FALSELY. It's something I remain concerned about, and why for a very long time I did not post here. There is one breeder who, when you google her, a FALSE trashing thread comes up as the first or second hit. There is another thread where people basically apologized to her, but that doesn't come up. Instead, anyone searching her on the internet gets the trashing pile-on. She asked for the thread to be removed, and it wasn't. Instead, the "apology" thread was started (which no one ever sees).

Historically, this place has been horrible for recklessly trashing people and piling on. I learned that when I first came here and announced a puppy I was going to buy. Oh, I was burned to a crisp immediately. I was warned against the breeder and the breeding, and several prominent dogs were trashed (Thunder, Ryder, Sonny and others), including some very fine producers. I was trashed, and was told publicly and in multiple PMs that my puppy would never clear, that his ancestors had an unacceptable amount of failed clearances (not true, by the way). (Oh, my boy cleared just fine, thanks, and so have all of his pups who have been tested so far.) It doesn't seem to be so bad anymore, but I certainly still have the taste of it in my mouth. And I consider myself one of the fairly knowledgeable people here.

So I just want to say that everyone should be skeptical about everything. Be skeptical of breeders, but also be skeptical of those trashing the breeders. People usually mean well when doing it (though sometimes not), and can make grand pronouncements on limited or incomplete information which turns out to be wrong (which is what happened to the breeder I discussed above) or mischaracterized, and it snowballs into a mob mentality.

Unfortunately, we do sometimes find speculation and gossip about breeding programs here.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 04:16 PM
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What I find disturbing is how many breeders who people ask about here on Golden Retriever Forum are LYING about health clearances! I mean what is with that? It's disturbing. It's one thing to not have them and be up front about it -- not acceptable either but at least honest. It's another thing to lie about having them. Which is why it is important for everything to be sent in to the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) database so it can be verified and buyers can check that to find out the truth. And I want to acknowledge some of the "regulars" on GRF who respond faithfully to puppy buyer's inquiries here. It shows how much you care that you take time to do help new buyers find their way through what is sometimes a maze of unethical breeders with cute puppies photos on their websites. Ok, guilty of that --the cute puppy photos:-) but I would never breed a dog that was underage or did not have health clearances.

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Last edited by fourlakes; 02-16-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 06:39 PM
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When I post here, I try to stay to the facts. If the dog does or does not have verifiable clearances, if it was bred underage, etc. Breeders can, and will, do whatever they want. I have no tolerance for any breeder who breeds on prelim and claims that they are good enough, or does not do cardiologist heart clearances, or who says that eye exams don't need to be done annually. I feel like our role here is to point out that the GRCA has made recommendations, and then show whether or not specific dogs have/do not have clearances. And in some cases show a pattern of behavior that can't be explained away by "I didn't know better."

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 06:53 PM
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Robin - thank you!

Just couple thoughts to add. It isn't terribly or horribly expensive getting full clearances. These aren't that unreasonable to require of a breeder.

Both my dogs get their eyes checked every year. Period. Both have had everything checked. And no, I don't do anything extra for the younger dog who may be bred... than I do for the older dog who absolutely will never be bred.

Hips/elbows - final clearances at 24 months were $200 even.

Eyes = a little more expensive than health clinics at dog shows but fine enough at $52 per dog each year.

Heart = Was only about $35-45 back when I had them done both times, both dogs. At a cardiologist.

These are the only clearances that actually are officially recommended by the breed club.

Again, I'm not a breeder - but if I do these things minimally myself with my pet dogs who I'm not making money off.... people who plan to make money off their dogs sure as heck better be doing the same things. Period.

Also, this has to do with a thread that was closed after somebody made a last comment. Unless I'm remembering this wrong, this was a comment by a vet tech who did all the xrays and health checks for the breeder in question.

Just gotta say something here. My regular vet who just sees my dogs for vaccinations - even THEY know that final clearances can only be done after 24 months. They would not waste a person's money by doing OFA's earlier than recommended. Period.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 07:19 AM Thread Starter
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I wrote the original thread post because of not only the vet tech's reply on the other one, but because this can be so very disheartening to see how many breeders there are out there doing such a shoddy job. Two weeks ago one of them (a vet himself in FL) wrote to me telling me to remove my post of two + years ago that was harshly judging his breeding program since HE is the vet (I guess HIS opin is all that matters on his breeding animals (which he is crossing w labs too)).... and also that he feels my website is a copy of his, please.... really? That'd be a nightmare to me and I seriously doubt we're competing for puppy buyers! BUT the biggest thing on these people is that they don't learn anything- it never occurs to them they are in the wrong- they threaten to sue and well, I guess if he sues me he sues me. But as long as all I ever post is the truth I do not see that there's a suit there. Which is what I meant about gossip and speculation, which I do not do.

It disturbs me the number of breeders who come here to basically figure out how to better fool their puppy buyers and the number who come here to defend bad breeding practices. Just learn, people! I for one would love to see that the faults found are being corrected and I would be the first to start saying 'go with confidence' about that breeder since I believe if we learn from our mistakes and are horrified at how we've broken best practices, we would be more steadfast about following best practices in the future. And it isn't a huge cost to do so- but even if it were, it's the cost of 'doing business' well.
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