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Aurora Goldens / dishonest breeder

18K views 38 replies 15 participants last post by  puddles everywhere 
#1 · (Edited)
I researched all the "how to find a good breeder" info. available. This breeder set off several red flags but facts unknown until after the sale.

Red flag #1) Was concerned when the momma dog was not listed in K9data.com but knew her breeder so let that go.

Made the 4hr (one way) trip to pick up the pup after weeks of anxiously waiting.

Red flag #2) Puppy selection was made, money exchanged before breeder informed me she would submit the registration. I questioned this but she insisted. How do you walk away without the puppy and loose a substantial amount of money?

Red flag #3) Puppy was picked up on a Sat. and on Monday contacted her vet to confirm they had been examined as stated in the contract. Vet ask which breed... turns out she has several. They also told me there was no individual exam.

This has been a very sick puppy, I've spent almost as much on vet bills as the price of the pup and still waiting for the results of a urine culture. We have a long road ahead.

Red flag #4) It appears the puppy was taken from her mother before 6 weeks and breeder insisted she be picked up at 7wks. After everything I have read about leaving mom too early I questioned the 7wk vs. 8/9 wk pick up but breeder offered no reason, just scheduled the visit.

Red flag #5) By the time we finally made it back home as the poor pup couldn't go more than 15 minutes without having to pee, I realized she had an inverted eye lid. Something the breeder knew or should have know about. This could have also been caught with a vet visit.

Red flag #6) I got her to the vet as soon as possible, blood work showed heavy parasite infection. This was no surprise as I immediately bathed her to remove the flea/tick powder... it made me sneeze. I found both fleas and ticks, a weepy eye and swollen, wet vulva.

Vet confirmed she had a UTI and has been on medication since picking her up in early April. She also had coccidia and taking medication for this too. This might have been avoided if the breeder had had the puppies checked as her contract stated.

I discovered the reason why the breeder did the registration when the papers arrived. She had declared herself a co-owner. I contacted her to find out why and she tells me she co-owns all of her pups. This would have been good information to have PRIOR to the purchase.

Red flag #7) I have contacted her to let her know of all the health issues but she does not respond. I guess she has her money and that's all she was interested in. Filed an AKC complaint only to be told they do not get involved in owner disputes. I'm trying to figure out how I got into an owner dispute! I thought this was a purchase with sole ownership, I had no reason to believe it wasn't. There is nothing in the contract stating she would co-own this puppy or on her website that she co-owns everyone or in any of the correspondence we shared for weeks. It's a limited registration, what's the point???

This breeder is deceptive, sells sick puppies and would not recommend her to anyone. Beware of Robin Coppedge and Aurora Goldens.
 
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#3 ·
It's concerning that the puppy had fleas and ticks - and definitely if you had the vet exam done the same day as picking up your puppy - it is a guarantee that your puppy had these parasites at the breeder vs picking them up where you live. I'm pointing this out, because it's insane how quick the dogs pick up ticks. <= I had my dogs hiking and we also were at a dog show last week - and not only did I get to see my first deer tick, but we plucked like 4 or 5 off of me or Bertie. He is covered for ticks but it failed with him. In theory. One of the ticks was dead already when we found it - but it was still embedded. The stuff we have him on should actually kill the ticks on contact or at least discourage them from biting.

Just throwing that out there. And fleas, could be in your house or yard already.

It might definitely be your puppy had fleas and ticks on it from the breeder's home - esp if the puppies were kept outside? But I'm going to say that unless you went directly to the vet and there was no exposure to other locations before the vet... the breeder can just explain that the puppy picked up the ticks and fleas from your property.

The other red flags... I'm waffling here because I don't necessarily see them as red flags. I'm not trying to protect this breeder, in fact I immediately saw two red flags when I looked briefly at their website and I'll share those red flags momentarily. Just going over a few quick notes.....

1. Co-ownerships - I actually know of a few breeders who sell all puppies like this. A lot of it is making sure that in case a home turns out badly, they have a right to claim ownership of the puppy. And I think it also prevents people from going to UKC and registering their dogs there so they can breed them with a "legitimate" registration. I think if there is a co-ownership, it complicates things for people who was to get around the limited registration.

I'm probably not explaining this clearly, as I've never had to co-own a dog. But I do know people who always sell puppies with them as a co-owner. I think that with some people it really doesn't matter because many aren't even interested in registering their dogs anyway.

It is only a problem if this comes back to her one line:

"Some puppies may be shown and we will work with you with special considerations." <= And/or the breeder intending to use your puppy for breeding purposes. This would be a case of you legitimately telling her that you did not agree to any of this and you do not want your dog shown or bred (if don't want all that).

2. Registering your dog for you - it is actually not too crazy. I know a lot of really decent breeders who do this. Again, it's because a lot of pet people won't remember to register the puppies.

This happened with one of our dogs. And how it worked out was my sisters were on a waiting list before our dog was even born. They were told how it would all work out - and the breeder wanted them to take the weeks leading up to the puppy being born and waiting for the puppy to be old enough to bring home - the breeder wanted them to really think about a good registration name for this puppy. She had them fill out the paperwork there at her house. They were the ones writing in the registered name and so on. She was the one who handled the paperwork and mailing it in to AKC.

Ideally, that is how your breeder should have handled the situation with your puppy. The fact you didn't know about how the registration would be handled and it's not spelled out on their website - it is a genuine complaint about communication. The breeder doing the registration herself and making sure she was the co-owner, etc... that isn't a red flag.

3. 7 weeks isn't too early. The moms by the time the puppies are 5-6 weeks old really start wanting to be anywhere else but with the chew factory. The puppies are very insistent on feeding all the time. Their teeth are sharp. There's no reason to keep puppies with their moms until 8-9 weeks old. A lot of breeders keep them until 8 weeks, I believe because they want to see what the litter really looks like and they've not yet made their own choice as far as a puppy they will keep.

4. Don't do anything about the eyelid. Your puppy may grow out of that.

5. Peeing every 15 minutes - is actually kinda normal for a puppy. It can be a sign that the puppy has a UTI, but not always. <= My youngest boy who came home at 9.5 weeks was in and out nonstop practically through 12-14 weeks when his bladder finally got a little bigger. He didn't have any accidents really, but he definitely was a nonstop pee factory as far as always wanting to go outside for potty.

6. K9Data is voluntary. And not using it isn't a bad thing. It's doofy because people like to see pedigrees of the puppies they are buying. And it's frustrating when you go to look up the parents and nope, not in there.

It is more of a bad thing if you go to look up the dogs in OFA and they are not listed. That a heavy duty red flag. I didn't check any of the Aurora dogs to see if they are in there, but bottom line that's where a breeder really is not doing their best to select healthy dogs to breed.

I'm not going to get carried away - but I know really good breeders who kinda were freaked out by K9Data back when it was starting to take off. One breeder esp had a fit about somebody putting her dogs in there against her wishes. She felt it was a privacy issue and - might be. A lot of people use K9Data to research health and longevity of lines. It can be used a cat fight tool between breeders, definitely....

7. Getting a litter checked by a vet. I think maybe some breeders here might want to describe the process. Some people do more than others - including a breeder friend who took a whole litter to get the eyes checked via eye clinic with an eye specialist. She used a clinic, because she gasped about spending $50 per puppy - with a lot of puppies. I always assumed that they have a vet go over the litter and checking eyes, hearts, etc and making sure there's nothing to note.

The breeders themselves may do a lot of the veterinary type of stuff like worming the puppies and giving them the first shots.

Now the red flags that I saw?

1. They sell puppies to anyone anywhere, sight unseen, no screening apparently. They ship puppies all over the place.

2. You have credit card? You can buy a puppy by credit card from them.... o_O
 
#4 ·
Sorry you are having such a rough beginning with your pup.

I don't have much expertise, but would comment about a couple things mentioned here. Oklahoma is one of the states to have laws that the minimum age to legally sell a puppy is 8 weeks old. If you had ownership before 8 weeks, that law was broken. There are several reasons for this law: a barrier to puppy mills, decreasing dog bite statistics, decreasing spread of puppy disease, and long term health of the puppy.

A puppy separated from its mother and litter before 8 weeks may need focused training on bite inhibition.

Adopting Puppies Before 8 Weeks - What You Should Know

There are a few recent threads about Nalyn's Goldens, mostly about negative experiences with them. Your breeder seems to have dogs from this line if not in partnership with Nalyn's.

I can't understand why you did not have more information up front, including a contract. Co-ownership and the terms of that co-ownership should be laid out in the contract.

I hope things will end well for you and the pup.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for helping me to see a different perspective, maybe red flag wasn't the best way to describe my concerns.

My questions about the early age came from many articles read online. I have another golden and she took her under her wing and really helped with the mouthing. Those teeth are sharp!

I noticed the bugs before we made our 1st pit stop but understand what you are saying. I always kept my girls on preventative when we showed. I believe the pups were kept in kennels outside as under all that fluff there was lots of dirt. It also took weeks to get her comfortable in the house.

In fact It took weeks and some very creative training to get her to look at me. She just didn't feel good, tail drooped, low fever and wined all the time. She is starting to feel better and has finally started to connect. She will be a beautiful girl when all this passes. And looking forward to getting more than 3 hrs of sleep as that's as long as she can hold it during the night. We are up to 30 min. during the day.

The k9data issue was my way of checking for any health issues but confirmed the certifications through OFA and wasn't really concerned. I lost a 5 yr old golden in Jan. with renal failure, turns out the sire passed at the age of 8 with renal failure as well. If they choose to post on k9data it can provide perspective buyers with longevity and a convenient way of searching history of the blood lines.

We have just reached 16 weeks and she has begun to out grow the eye issue and vet confirmed there was no damage to the cornea and drainage is almost gone. I was given the choice between 3 pups and it would have been nice to know this was a problem, the drainage didn't show up until the next day.

We still have pus drainage from the UTI but she has figured out how to tell me when she needs to go, this is good! Vet is concerned there is a bigger issue and still waiting on the results of the culture.

My biggest beef about the co-ownership is the not knowing. It was never discussed and honestly don't understand it. I provided a life history, vet of 50 yrs recommendation and even prior golden breeder references. I'm 65 and the last thing I want to do is breed puppies! The last breeder allowed full registration knowing the girls would be spayed as promised, and they were. I don't like the deception, if this is her practice with all of her puppies it needed to be expressed prior to any monetary exchange or maybe posted on her website.

She signed a contract implying the pups had been checked by a vet, that is deceptive. She gave the 1st shot and 4 worming treatments from Tractor Supply. Because I am a retired vet tech I have no problem with her doing this but don't tell me they have been checked by a vet it they haven't.

I really have a problem with the fact a breeder can make themselves a co-owner without a buyers permission or knowledge. In my opinion omission of information is no way to do business.
 
#7 · (Edited)
That is good information to know.. I was not aware of the law in OK. The puppy turned 7 wks the day after we picked her up. I had a horrible time getting focus and the biting was certainly an issue. Not sure what I would have done without my sweet older golden, she gently put her in her place with the nipping. I squeaked a bunch the 1st few weeks and wore long sleeve sweat shirts! Lots of bandaids later she has finally gotten through this. Focus work is ongoing and is necessary to move forward with her training.

The call to the breeder's vet (received the vet info. on the Sat. she was picked up) on the Monday after the exchange was disturbing. When they asked which breed litter I was calling about is when I got concerned. The breeder would not let me see where the puppies were kept. I noticed on her website the week after getting this pup she was already getting deposits for another litter of goldens due soon and I have no idea how many other breeds she is selling. I was only allowed a 30 minute window to pick a pup... not what I was expecting.
There is no co-owner contract and have no idea what privileges this provides her. This should have been discussed, she is welcome to help with all the vet bills but don't like the idea she has the right to reposes this pup at any time.

If her practice is to be co-owner of all her pets this is certainly her choice but not knowing until you receive the papers is very bad business practice. I explained my plans for the pup so the fear of me not putting the papers through should not have been a concern, I can't compete without them. Telling me they have been checked by the vet and not doing it is also deceptive. If we make it through this health issue she will be a wonderful dog. I'm not as convinced she will be all that great in competition if she can't connect. But I like a challenge and she is very smart so hope for the best.

It would have been a good idea to use this website for information in my research on the bloodlines. If there is a next time I will definitely use this resource.
 
#8 ·
There's a little semi-silent scuffle going on on the east coast right now about just your issue- a co-own without knowledge, and then holding things hostage. If you are the first owner listed on the papers, you will be the one to get the CH cert for example, if you spend the money and your pup is nice enough to earn one. If not (and this is how the E Coast one was discovered) then the breeder/co-owner will get them.
Naturally, if you are the one paying for the CH or titles, you will want your CH certificate!
If your puppy is on limited registration because you're going to do performance, there is no logical reason for co-owning.
It was asked to describe how the vet check goes. I moved to FL from TN- TN has no laws governing puppy sales/checks/etc. Florida requires an individual health certificate (like you'd use to fly with) for each puppy, issued no earlier than 8 weeks. In TN I gave my own shots, dewormed at 2.4.6 and 8 weeks, and took my puppies in at 7.5 weeks for individual exams. I printed off blank health check paperwork for each puppy, because my vet did not have these. She filled them out as she went over each one- pretty extensive exam, she did a fecal on a couple (because if one has anything, they all do) weighed, checked knees and elbows, teeth, testicles, general appearance, eyes w scope and heart.
In Florida, the health cert process would prevent a puppy w eye issues being sold.
they can't be sold w positive coccidia either and all puppies are fecal'd, checked for cocci, worms, etc. Eyes looked at, heart listened to. So far (I've done them at 2 places now) no one has checked knees and elbows. They're weighed of course. And a health cert is issued. I have friends here who have had to keep a puppy until they passed the cocci test, and another friend whose puppy had ectropion (eyelid) and she had to have the surgery performed at 18 weeks-keeping the puppy until it was able to get a certificate. I understand that monorchids are allowed to be sold if they are noted. Not sure on cardiac but I can't imagine a murmur would make the puppy unsaleable.
Personally, I do all puppy registrations online- I have the people fill out the paperwork and just keep it with the contract, etc. That's because BoM requires 100% registration and it's my experience people do not do them 100%! I've done all registrations for about 10 years... well before BoM came about.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all the info and insight. As it turns out this Golden breeder also has websites selling Maltese, Norfolk Terriers and not sure about Border collies... I know she owns one but can't find a website showing she is selling them.
She is not registered as a commercial dog breeder so does not have a license to sell puppies under the guidelines of the Oklahoma state regulations. This has been an interesting journey. I just want my pup to get well and for no one else to receive a sick puppy from her.
 
#11 ·
Varies from state to state, when I was volunteering w/ rescue trying to influence OK's puppy mill bill, the proposed verbiage rolled in all breeders and rescues based on the number of animals being placed per year--not sure what ended up passing. In GA, we were highly regulated by the state's Dept of Agriculture
 
#12 ·
Megora, Not sure what you mean... she is not listed as a licensed breeder with Oklahoma, that I could find anyway. I can't find a website for her border collies but did see show results that listed her as the breeder.
nightingalenorfolks.com weblink for the terriers & wildskyemaltese.com for the maltese. I certainly hope I did not contribute to a puppy mill!

I'm new to this forum and have lots to learn about posting, sorry if I have messed this up.
 
#13 ·
SheetsSM, reading the OK regulations it said breeders with less than 11 breeding females were not considered commercial. I searched the list but couldn't find any of the kennel names associated with her name on their list. Should I contact them? My pups mom is from Dogwood Springs / Colleen Maddox and she is considered a very reputable breeder in North Tx. They have co-owned dogs together for many years, it never occurred to me to check for so many other breeds. Maybe I put too much faith in the close knit breeders in this area. I just don't want to see anyone else have to go through all this. It has truly been a learning experience.
 
#14 ·
Dishonest Breeder / Puppy update

Thought I would give an update on my pup. We are at 4 months and still on medication. It turns out she had a very severe, antibiotic resistant bacterial infection in her bladder... drinking stagnate water?

The good news is the parasite problem seems to be gone as well as the coccidia so this is progress.

Thanks to the AKC the breeder has removed herself as a co-owner, so this is good.

It's sad to say that I didn't do such a great job picking a breeder and thanks to the help from people on this forum I have a better idea of what to look for if there is ever a next time.

As it turns out the sire did not have current clearances for hips, elbows or heart. The eyes were up to date but not such good news. The problem my pup had with her eye was a genetic trait and not a turned in eye lash problem.

The dam had current hips (only "fair"), elbows & heart but no eye clearances. I think this was her first litter as she is only 3.

The breeder offered a full refund if I was unhappy with the puppy. It's not the puppy I'm unhappy with and shame on me for not doing a better job of checking this breeder out.

My girl is a part of the family, not an inferior pair of shoes to be returned. This has been a very expensive lesson learned but returning my girl is not an option. The breeder is more than welcome to help pay the vet bills.
 
#16 ·
Sipsy update

Thought I would post a Sipsy update. We have been on medication for the last 4 months for lots of different bugs and she has been a trooper through it all. She has been on this last medication for 6 weeks and finally getting to see her true personality. We made the trip (it's about 2 hrs to this vet) for a follow up culture to ensure the bug is gone. Keep fingers crossed!
I got a copy of the lab results to see what we have been fighting and it turns out she had two different "super bugs" called Kiebsiella pneumoniae & Citrobacter freundii.

Because this is not the more common bacteria associated with UTI I contacted the breeder to share the info. It seemed like the right thing to do as she has 4 different breeds in her kennels. Sadly her response just confirms she doesn't care about her pups, they are strictly a source of income.

While Aurora Goldens have some good breeding lines, if you are looking for a caring breeder that wants to retain a connection to the people she sells to this is not the place to be. I was looking for a performance pup to do obedience & agility. The breeder had no clue what the personalities of her puppies were. While I deeply love my girl she lacks the drive and energy I was hoping for... with training we can compete, I just have to work a little harder :) She is lacking that want to please mentality but who knows, maybe now that she is feeling better her attitude will improve.
Dog Mammal Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae
 
#18 ·
Thanks guys, your support and input through all this has been very helpful. I did check with the Ok. gov and there is no minimum age to sell puppies. They also say unless she has more than 11 breeding females they don't really care and she is not required to be licensed or regulated by the state.

Moral to the story is do your homework, look for advice on this forum, check reference on the breeder and DEFINITELY visit prior to purchase.
Check for up to date clearances.
If a breeder has the sire & dam and they are both dirty with huge mats behind their ears, it's not a good sign. Ask to see the kennels or where the puppies are kept. It's not a good sign if they don't want you to see where puppies are kept.
Just because the breeder is cranky and doesn't want to be personable doesn't mean they don't have good dogs but it certainly should tell you it's not someone that is interested in the puppies future or maintaining a relationship.

I messed up, it's been a long and expensive lesson and thru the grace of God, have a wonderful puppy. She does not have the performance level I was promised but couldn't ask for a better companion.

Dog Mammal Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae
 
#19 ·
Your Sispy is absolutely beautiful! Thank you for all of the care you have given her.

I recognize some of the pedigrees from this kennel. They are lovely dogs. I can see why you chose this breeder. I would not have suspected there would be any issues whatsoever. Even with the option for shipping, some very reputable breeders offer this so I would not have immediately become suspicious.

I hope your girl continues on her healthy path and am so glad she is better!
 
#22 ·
Jennretz you were right on target. Sipsy is the most laid back golden puppy ever, she is welcome in all the local stores and greets even children politely as well as sits on command and waits while we check out. For a 6 month old puppy it's exceptional behavior. She went from a pup that would't make eye contact to a luv bug, snuggles and lays across my lap and wakes me with a cuddles and a kiss. I had changed my focus to basic obedience skills so we could do pet therapy.

Now that she obviously feels better we decided to try the dixie cup drills again this morning and she was very engaged and caught on quickly. I also started with heel training today. My method is a little odd, I like to have them step up on a metal tin that is just large enough for both front feet. I teach heel position this way, heel is a place not an action. Anyway, she stayed engaged and with just a few tries understood she was to place both front feet on the tin. We will continue with this until I can stand beside her and we can rotate around the tin. It's a great way to teach pivots, walking in a straight line is boring while this requires her to think and focus.

I was amazed at how happy she was to be in the game. Thanks for your encouragement, I had pretty much given up the idea of competition obedience with this girl. If I could just get her to sleep past 6am!
 
#23 ·
There is a saying, and I have found it to be true, 'You may not get the dog you thought you 'wanted', but you do get the dog you 'need'.

We cannot know what they are capable of until/unless we are willing to give them a chance. Regardless where they come from, who they come from, what their history may be, given a chance, the opportunity to learn, the opportunity to 'try', they can and will, with our help, be 'all that they can be'. We may need to alter our focus, our 'wants' a little, or maybe not, they may be all that we dreamed of, and so much more, we just haven't got 'there' yet, we cannot know what lies on the journey we travel with them. Love them, accept them for 'who they are', grow with them, and keep in mind it is not the 'destination', but the journey .... that counts.
 
#24 ·
There is a saying, and I have found it to be true, 'You may not get the dog you thought you 'wanted', but you do get the dog you 'need'.
So true and you put my feelings into words so much better than I could. I'm blessed with this beautiful ... hopefully healthy puppy each day and will enjoy her being in my life with or without titles.

I'm grateful to enjoy the journey and will let the destination reveal itself in time. Thank you!
 
#25 ·
She is absolutely beautiful. Sadly, we learned the "hard" way, too. But we're blessed with a happy , healthy, less than compliant, girl. With lots of consistency and love she is becoming such a good girl.




I am still cocking my head to how our girl was given a health certificate in Florida. And if they do have to be checked at 8-weeks and issued I am not sure as her date of exam for the health certificate was one week prior to us bringing her home(which puts her at 7-weeks). It's all shady. BUT I am blessed to have stumbled on this forum and know to do a way better job at finding a breeder if we choose to give her a companion when she is older.


:)
 
#26 ·
FL vets are not allowed to give a health cert until puppies are 8 weeks old.
I know that sometimes they will do them on a Friday after 5 if they were born on Saturday but that's about as early as I have heard of any doing them.
 
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#27 ·
That's what I was told by my vet, and our E-vet during her treatment. However, her certificate clearly shows that he issued it with an exam date of 5/17; this makes her 7 weeks and 2 days old. So I'm not even sure if she truly saw a vet prior to us coming home or if her vet just rubber stamped. It's been an eye opening experience for sure. Feeling ignorant for being so naive.
 

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#28 ·
I had thought how nice it would be if OK. required health certs. but guess dishonest people will find their way around the rules regardless.

My breeder was a registered nurse and felt qualified to give the 1st set of shots. While I really don't have a problem with this as I am a retired vet tech and have been giving shots to dogs for 40 yrs. I did have a problem with her stating on her web site and in her contract that the pups had been examined by a vet. When I contacted the vet it seems they had never seen the pups, they just provided the serum.

At a minimum the pups should be examined, eyes checked, joints rotated, ears looked at, listen to their heart, weight and just a general going over to find any obvious problems.

I totally understand the expense of clearances but honestly when you sell the pups for $2000. and their are 8 to 12 pups and multiple litters, you can't tell me there isn't enough in the budget for a quick exam for the pups. Especially for this lady, her daughter is the vet!

If I had been smart... hindsight :) I had every right to a health certificate as the breeder is in a different state than me.
 
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