Amica Goldens vs. Scion Goldens - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

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Old 01-20-2013, 05:01 PM
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Amica Goldens vs. Scion Goldens

Anyone have any experience with these breeders? Anyone one have one of their puppies? If we get a second golden it would probably be from one of these two. Both seem like good breeders but I would love your input! Pros and cons about going with one vs the other? I can't decide. Thanks!


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Old 01-20-2013, 09:40 PM
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I think either one is good. But to make sure they are, proper health clearances must be done including hip, eye, heart, and elbows for at least 5 generations in the pedigree of the litter.

If they do clearances, but not 'prove' their dogs by competing in the conformation ring or do obedience or any other performance events, I may check elsewhere. Good luck!
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:00 AM
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my aunt and uncle have a 2 year old golden from scion, but he has hip dysplatia, i do believe that other factors can come to play other than genetics with hip dysplatia, i havent seen him since he was a pup, but they are pretty satisfied with everything else, and its very mild aparently
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
my aunt and uncle have a 2 year old golden from scion, but he has hip dysplatia, i do believe that other factors can come to play other than genetics with hip dysplatia, i havent seen him since he was a pup, but they are pretty satisfied with everything else, and its very mild aparently
What factors, other than genetics, do you believe came in to play in this instance?
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:10 AM
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i dont know, but what i do know is scions lines are pretty clear of HD, and there has been afew suspected culprits of a small percentage of other cases including diets in their first couple of months of life
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:06 AM
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I've done a lot of reading about hip dysplasia since my Ozzie was diagnosed. The bottom line of everything I've read is that hip dysplasia is a genetic disorder. If the dog does not have a genetic predisposition to dysplasia, it doesn't matter how crummy the food, how overweight they are, or how many times they bound up and down the stairs... they will not develop hip dysplasia. Though there are a number of other health issues that can result when these factors are ignored (knee injuries, for example). What I've gathered from my reading is that hip dysplasia results from a combination of genetic of environmental factors.... but the genetic piece does have to be there.

That said, if Scion is a breeder who is doing all of the clearances and getting out there to prove their dogs -- then they're doing everything they can. Even when you breed a clear dog to a clear dog, there is a 12% incidence of hip dysplasia. Our current method of testing (by looking for outward expression of the disease for multiple generations in a line) isn't a fool proof guarantee that reputable breeders will not produce some small percentage of dogs who may be affected over the course of their active breeding career. I hear people on this site say all the time that if a breeder tells you they've never seen cancer in their lines they are either lying or haven't been doing it long enough. I would imagine the same can probably be said of hip dysplasia.... though I'd add the caveat that it could also mean that puppy owners aren't testing (some dogs never show obvious symptoms and the typical pet owner may see no reason to take x rays).

To the OP - good on your for doing your homework before bringing a puppy home. Sorry I'm not much help right now on looking up the breeders, but you're in good hands with the folks on this forum. From what I've seen people saying so far, it sounds like you're on the right track.

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Old 01-21-2013, 10:45 AM
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Julie is correct on what she has stated above. I know that even a really GOOD breeder can get a dog with HD, whether a show puppy or just a family pet. Some people really know what is behind a pedigree as far as HD or ED. Some dogs never show any signs of having either and never limp a day in their lives. If your dog does happen to be diagnosed with HD, just make sure he/she is active and really strengthen that rear end.

Even the best of best can get a dog that is diagnosed with HD and it can happen to even the most careful of breeders.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:03 PM
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Well, it's all good to say that a genetic component must be there, but no one really knows for sure. We all believe there is a genetic component, but none has ever been identified; it just seems to be what makes the most sense given the evidence. But we don't know if it's really there or how it actually works.

Just me, perhaps, but I think it is interesting to note that there was almost no HD in Golden Retrievers before the advent of commercial dog food in the depression and WWII years. Prior to that, it was almost unheard of in the breed. Undiagnosed maybe? No one knows. But the rate of HD appearance skyrocketed in the late 40s and early 50s, and seemed to reach a high in the 80s, which tracks the use of commercial dog food. Now, we have no more evidence for that than we do a genetic component, but it's an interesting correlation. (Correlation does not necessarily mean causation, though.) It's also noteworthy that dogs raised on better quality food seem to have a lower rate of HD, though that too is hard to say for sure because there have been no studies done on that.

I think Julie is probably right about a combination of some sort of genetic predisposition combined with some sort of environmental trigger being the most likely cause. But we still don't really know. What's taken as conventional wisdom is just that; it's not science.

The fact that we don't seem to be able to breed it out altogether implies a genetic factor. That makes sense. It may be that whatever set of genes makes a Golden a Golden also gives some level of predisposition for HD. Otherwise, you'd think we'd have been able to breed it virtually out, by now. So, my own guess is that all Golden Retrievers, no matter how carefully bred, have some predisposition for HD, because my own belief is that HD is linked to the essence of what makes a Golden Retriever. But again, that's just my belief. The truth is that we all have beliefs, but no one really knows for sure. Yet.

Edited to add: Oops. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just got carried away.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:30 PM
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You also have to incorporate of how much inbreeding was done several years ago. That probably multiplied the risk factors. I know this isn't a proven fact, but it could be a theory, in general.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:18 PM
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Amica Goldens vs. Scion Goldens

Thanks guys but I was really more interested in people's experiences with these breeders and/or their dogs.


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