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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Megora View Post
I think this might be a troll thread.
I've noticed that every few days, a new thread pops up that sounds a lot like this one. There's currently another one (not in the breeder section) that is getting a ton of responses that also doesn't pass the sniff test.


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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Savage88 View Post
You are unbelievable!! I did not ask your opinions on how i was buying, i was asking was if anyone knew of any litters in my area that were not of your peoples high standards because i know they are out there. One would think that on a Golden Retriever forum they would be willing to help with all golden retrievers, and not just the chosen ones!! You claim to be for helping the breed and what not but you deem these animals unworthy of a good home? They are not good enough for you to help put in homes?

The thing is Everytime you buy from a puppy mill or a back yard breeder, that is money in their pockets and they will keep breeding bc people like yourself feel sorry for them. It is not about buying a "poor" puppy... It is about supporting breeding practices like that. I am sad that you have such low standards for your puppy.

Have you thought about adopting from a Rescue instead of a breeder who does nothing to try and help the breed. Are you aware of all the health issues Goldens have? It is also sad that you have such little (if any) respect of reputable breeders who do everything in their power to produce healthy and sound puppies.

I hope you stay here and learn and stop being so one sided.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:46 PM
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I an going against the majority of the posters on this topic.

I agree with Savage88.

Not all non-professionally bread puppies are of such poor quality. Or from a puppy mill in the Amish country (in our area they come from Canada).

Both of the dogs I've have/had came from non-professional breeders from local families. Brandy was twelve and in good health until the end. And Summer is six and a half and in good health. Both pups came from registered parents, they were "pet quality" which suited me just fine.

Would either dog win a dog show - no. But then I knew that they were "pet quality" when I got them. I could have registered them with the AKC but, I wasn't planning to breed or show them. I just wanted a good dog as a member of my family.

From what I've read on this forum. there are many "quality professionally bread puppies" out there that have/had major health problems. Just look for about ten minutes and you will see at least dozen posts with people whose dogs are very sick.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:57 PM
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I am well aware of how much a pup w/ papers costs now a days. But, your only taking consideration of animals with papers. There are plenty of goldens that do not get registered but are still purebred, healthy, and live long lives. Ive seen different reasons why people dont register such as one female jumps a fence and gets in with the males and comes out pregnant, all dogs AKC with outstanding backgrounds but dont know who the sire is. Or just a normal person with an AKC Female that wants to have puppies so they get her bred with a male w/ papers, they get their puppies and want to sell the rest but they would rather sell them quick as to selling for $1k which is not that much of a priority as it is for the full time breeders. Im just saying there are Pups out there that are purebred and healthy, you just have to find them. And thats why i came to this forum thinking i would widen my search to people that were in golden community and might know of litters in my area.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:00 PM
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There is a HUGE difference between a "pet quality puppy" from a true hobby breeder (i.e. someone who is active with their dogs, does health clearances, etc) and puppies bred by people who happen to have a male and female golden retriever so they breed them. Going to a reputable breeder does not mean you are getting a show prospect, most of their puppies go to companion homes as "pet quality" puppies. Hobby breeders are not "professionals" - they are breeding to better the breed and produce the healthiest puppies possible. Is it an exact science, of course not. It never is with a living being. Particularly when there are external factors influencing the outcome. But I would MUCH rather give my puppy a chance at as healthy a life as possible by buying from a breeder who does all health clearances recommended by the Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA) including OFA hips, OFA elbows, annual eye exams and a heart clearance from a board certified cardiologist. This is not the cadillac of puppies, this is the BARE minimum that a breeder should be doing before breeding a litter of goldens.

It really does pay to stack the deck in your favor on the front end. You have a breeder who cares about the puppies and is there for the life of the dog, someone who will walk you through training issues, and any health issues that arise. Not someone who couldn't care less about the pup from the time you get in your car and take it home. Plus you are supporting a breeder who is doing things right. Not padding the pockets of someone who is just breeding to breed. There are so many homeless animals already, the world does not need more irresponsibly bred dogs.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:17 PM
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I know the initial response you got was a little short but I think it's the most informative one you've gotten so far, Savage88.

You're right, there are people out there with purebred dogs that aren't necessarily papered, or that aren't showed. My dog is in that situation - he's registered, he's pure, he's intact (I'm not breeding him!). You'll find them advertising online a lot of times.

But there's two things to keep in mind: first, Golden Retrievers are beautiful, wonderful family pets, and a LOT of people want one. So even in the case you mention above - female accidentally gets bred - that pup is still out of a purebred popular breed and they can charge accordingly.

Second, a lot of people want purebred puppies to sell - it'd be fun to see the miracle of life and hey, you can get some money too! But finding two purebred dogs to put together can be a hassle. And even then, how can you prove a dog is purebred without that slip of paper? Anybody could say their Fido is purebred otherwise.

For a non-animal example of supply-demand, look at Furby's - remember when those toys were super popular and they charged upwards of 50 dollars for one? I just saw one for 15 bucks at a Wal-Mart. The popularity hiked the price up but now that it's been a few years and they aren't as popular they can't charge the same amount.

I agree that the best bet for you may be to open up to rescues. There are a lot of beautiful mixes out there (I've seen some that you wouldn't know weren't pure unless someone told you), and sometimes purebreds/"possible" purebreds are rescued too (although usually there are waiting lists for purebreds). Rescues also generally have lower prices than a breeder will.

I just put in New York City as my search on Petfinder and found these beauties:
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Manhattan, NY | Dylan
(Okay, you can see the lab in this guy, but he's still adorable)

Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | South Orange, NJ | Ruffio
(This guy is really handsome and other than the white patches - which, to be fair, could be the light - looks pretty darn close to purebred to me!)

Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Larchmont, NY | Teddy
(This guy's a "mini retriever", 22 lbs and 5 years old, but he's downright handsome)

Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Randolph, NJ | Leo
(Purebred!!)

Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Plainview, NY | Maverick
(Senior boy that, to my untrained eye, looks pretty darn purebred to me)

This was just the first two pages of results. ETA: There were at least four more in the next two pages that I thought had the typical Golden "look" as well, but I don't want to make this post too long! Also, I just read your initial post said "female". There were a few girls in the mix of ones I found later, it just took a little searching. (Although I don't think you'll have good luck finding one not spayed...)

I hope I helped a little bit. Please don't take the harsh criticism here to heart. Most of the members of this forum feel so strongly about this breed and want to ensure that everything is done to make sure that the breed continues to be as perfect as it is now. That means this forum is more supportive of puppies coming from breeders that charge more than you want to pay unfortunately. But regardless of your dog's past or circumstances, all dogs are dogs and the most important thing is that you love your pet.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Savage88 View Post
All we want is a Golden Retriever puppy that is healthy and a true golden for our family, no mix. Thanks for any help!!
This quote really strikes me as being at odds with the rest of your post.

You want healthy, but you don't care for clearances. So, I'm not sure how you quantify your need. A dog may appear healthy and just drop dead from SAS. A young dog can have hip or elbow dysplasia and can be asymptomatic.

You want a true golden, no mix. But, then say you don't care about papers.

Perhaps, you should really work on aligning your needs since they seem at odds.

As it sits now, my suggestion would be to not post for help finding a puppy mill or back yard breeder to support. These options are available to you fairly easily online through Craigslist, classifieds or Kiji. And yes, that is where your budget is putting you at this time. If you really do not care to learn about rescue options, purchasing a puppy with the best chance at a healthy life or hear opinions of folks who are very passionate about the health of this breed you may not want to ask for this kind of help here.

If you are serious about wanting a "heathy, true golden", please stick around, read the stickies, and listen to the wisdom others are offering.

You will also receive a much better reception if you are a little less disdainful of reputable breeders. Remember, the historical and continuing work of dedicated reputable breeders is why we can own "Goldens" at all.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
As it sits now, my suggestion would be to not post for help finding a puppy mill or back yard breeder to support. These options are available to you fairly easily online through Craigslist, classifieds or Kiji. And yes, that is where your budget is putting you at this time. If you really do not care to learn about rescue options, purchasing a puppy with the best chance at a healthy life or hear opinions of folks who are very passionate about the health of this breed you may not want to ask for this kind of help here.
And the odds of finding a puppy in the below 500 price range in those places are not that good. People aren't stupid. They will charge what people are willing to pay.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LJack View Post
This quote really strikes me as being at odds with the rest of your post.

You want healthy, but you don't care for clearances. So, I'm not sure how you quantify your need. A dog may appear healthy and just drop dead from SAS. A young dog can have hip or elbow dysplasia and can be asymptomatic.

You want a true golden, no mix. But, then say you don't care about papers.

Perhaps, you should really work on aligning your needs since they seem at odds.

As it sits now, my suggestion would be to not post for help finding a puppy mill or back yard breeder to support. These options are available to you fairly easily online through Craigslist, classifieds or Kiji. And yes, that is where your budget is putting you at this time. If you really do not care to learn about rescue options, purchasing a puppy with the best chance at a healthy life or hear opinions of folks who are very passionate about the health of this breed you may not want to ask for this kind of help here.

If you are serious about wanting a "heathy, true golden", please stick around, read the stickies, and listen to the wisdom others are offering.

You will also receive a much better reception if you are a little less disdainful of reputable breeders. Remember, the historical and continuing work of dedicated reputable breeders is why we can own "Goldens" at all.
You always write so beautifully!!! It makes me mad that I can not write and put my thoughts together like you!!
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 10:26 AM
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Both of the dogs I've have/had came from non-professional breeders from local families. Brandy was twelve and in good health until the end. And Summer is six and a half and in good health. Both pups came from registered parents, they were "pet quality" which suited me just fine.

Would either dog win a dog show - no. But then I knew that they were "pet quality" when I got them. I could have registered them with the AKC but, I wasn't planning to breed or show them. I just wanted a good dog as a member of my family.
When people use the term "pet quality" - I always wonder what they mean.

I mean I do know I got yelled at when I called up a breeder here in MI - this years ago, before I found Jacks and this was my first time actually looking for a breeder myself - I was upset when the breeder I spoke with used the term "companion quality" to describe the litter and told me she only sells the puppies on a limited registration.

At the time, I was under the impression that companion quality meant the dogs had some noticable fault that would prevent them from representing the breed in a show ring. For the amount of money I would have spent at this breeder, I did not want a dog whose eyes were too light or shaped weird or who had something otherwise WRONG with him.

Once the breeder figured out what I was being an idiot about, she explained to me that "companion quality" does not mean the same thing as poorly bred. Coming from her, it simply meant that the puppy was not her show pick. Or she didn't have any show picks in the litter. And or just plain that because the puppies were being sold on limited registration.

But even if you have dogs with various faults, it doesn't mean they aren't show quality, though it probably would mean a dog would have a longer road to getting a CH. Not all faults would have a dog removed from a ring. <- this was something I learned years later.

In a roundabout way, I guess what I'm saying is that in my opinion, if you purchase a golden retriever from a breeder, you have the right to expect that dog to look like a golden and act like a golden. I love all dogs, but if I'm purchasing a puppy from a breeder, it's got to have more special quality to it than a mixed breed puppy from a rescue would. If a dog does not have papers, then there really isn't much difference between that dog and any other mixed breed you could rescue. You can't say that dog is purebred if there is no paperwork and/or trustworthy source presenting that litter (I understand that there are some people who play funny games to ensure they can sell a mistake or desperation litter with papers). And let me say that there are a lot of wonderful dogs in rescues who deserve good homes and would make ideal pets if you do not care about whether a dog is purebred or not. When I was a little girl, purchasing from a breeder meant that if you wanted, you could show that dog and breed that dog. I'd never heard of any such thing as "show quality" or "pet quality". And then even back then, "pet quality" meant that there was something REALLY WRONG with that dog whether that was appearance, temperament, or health.

Obviously, when you get away from the show ring, you will have different goals in breeding. I had this conversation with a friend who only does obedience and fieldwork with her dogs. She doesn't care what the dogs look like, as long as they have the temperament and trainability that a working golden retriever needs.

Poorly bred, to her, means a dog who is crippled because of structure flaws, who lacks confidence and working drive.

She described a "crappy golden" or poorly bred in her opinion is one who just blobs around and shows no particular skill or interest in anything besides eating and sleeping.

But I'm just babbling.

Quote:
From what I've read on this forum. there are many "quality professionally bread puppies" out there that have/had major health problems. Just look for about ten minutes and you will see at least dozen posts with people whose dogs are very sick/
And if you get out and about to generic dog forums or Yahoo boards or whatever, you run into the same type of posts (and worse) concerning poorly bred dogs. Heck, go further and talk to your vet about golden retrievers. Same thing with people in rescue. They see a lot of goldens with all kinds of infirmities and issues that make them less desirable than a well-bred and lovingly bred golden retriever.

My first golden (that $250 golden boy) had various issues of all kinds - a few which affected his quality of life, as well as our quality of life with him. Because of all of his issues and flaws - I always thought of him as "pet quality" or "companion quality" - or my definition of that back then. So you understand why I reacted so poorly when I was doing one of my first interviews with a breeder on my own and was told that she only sold companion quality puppies to the general public.


ETA - And I forgot to say this, but the other thing is when I was little and because there was something 'special' about purchasing a pedigreed puppy from a breeder - it was a matter of pride filling out the AKC paperwork and having that piece of paper in your dog's memory box. There has been a huge "nobody is special because everyone is - ie - if everyone is special then nobody is" campaign from people in rescue to make people embarrassed or disenchanted with the coolness of having a dog registered with the big dog club... and that's well just stupifying honestly. You can't have "purebred" dogs if there is no legitimate paperwork and careful bookkeeping to back up that claim. Registration and dog clubs are not just for rich people who only care about showing their dogs. The existence of dog clubs like GRCA (I forgot the obvious) as well as the AKC (gives legitimacy to the breed clubs and provides the record keeping for shows and competition) protects the breeds we love, keeping them 'true' to what we 'want' in the breed. Without all of that paperwork and dog shows (obedience, field, conformation...) that opens the door to people to breed further and further away from the standard.

I think a good example of that would be border collies. There were people who FOUGHT the entrance of the breed in the AKC, because they felt that the club would ruin what the breed is. The flip side of that is that without clubs like the AKC, you will see more of a variety of appearance. I vaguely remember reading or seeing something where something that looked like a cross between a jack russell terrior and a border collie could be identified as a border collie. Even though it was completely ugly.
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