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Old 01-04-2013, 11:34 PM
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Well a technical answer is... if she is registered with AKC she is a golden retriever. If she is registered with the CKC she is a golden retriever. If she is registered with the KC she is a golden retriever.

The posters are just trying to help this person navigate the path to finding a reputable breeder. Which can be very difficult especially when looking for a "popularized" color or breed. Any time there is a boost in popularity or demand, there is an increase in folks not doing things well and looking to make a buck. Think Bethoven and Saint Bernards or Taco Bell/Paris Hilton and Chihuahuas.

I really don't think the poster wants this thread to turn into an argument over a personal preference in style. Although if you do want to see my opinion I actually started a thread on this here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/...my-golden.html (Breed dividing labels/new name for my golden)
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 07:42 AM
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There are many reputable breeders of English Style dogs in the United States... the website that was linked is a good place to start. There seem to be more of us on the East Coast to look at. The Canadian standard DOES NOT have a preference toward lighter dogs but it does not penalize them the way that the US standard does... on the West coast of Canada it is difficult to finish a lighter dog ... on the East Coast which is a bit more European in attitude, ie. Montreal, the lighter colored dogs are more common...

the key is to do your homework regarding this type, it is easy to get taken advantage of... stay away from the marketing words... make sure all clearances are in place regardless of who you go to or what kind of golden retriever you get... they are all golden retrievers.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:14 AM
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I talked to a woman who breeds "English Cremes" early on in my search for breeders. I stumbled across her website by accident, and called her. She seemed nice enough, but I could not get her off the phone. 20 minutes into our conversation, she was urging me to send her a deposit due to the "high demand" for her puppies. To top it off, she wouldn't even let me come and visit her facility.

See how many red flags you can find on this website: MN ENGLISH GOLDEN

Coincidentally, a family from my son's Webelo pack got a puppy from them around the same time we got Bella. They brought him over to play when they were both about 10-11 weeks. Looking at the two puppies side by side....let me just say I'm glad I never got my puppy from that breeder. They encountered a few issues early on, but I won't get in to that here. Regardless of the issues, they're still convinced that their puppy is superior due to it's extremely light color. I just keep my mouth shut when she goes on and on about it.

The bottom line is that they were breeding exclusively for color. The woman told me they have "European Cremes," which have a little more color, and "Full English Cremes," which are almost pure white, and come with a higher price tag. If a breeder's website advertises "Full English Creme" I would run away.

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Old 01-05-2013, 09:41 AM
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My first red flag is the fact that she did not invite you to see her place and her dogs before she asked for the deposit. Second red flag is the deposit on a puppy you have not even seen yet. Let me guess it was also non-refundable!

To the OP - IMHO, gove yourself time to learn the new surroundings you just moved to, try to stay local when purchasing a puppy and get to know the breeder thru visits. Make a decision only when you feel comfortable with the person and see their care and breeding practices.
After all, you are looking to add a new family member.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia M View Post
My first red flag is the fact that she did not invite you to see her place and her dogs before she asked for the deposit. Second red flag is the deposit on a puppy you have not even seen yet. Let me guess it was also non-refundable!

To the OP - IMHO, gove yourself time to learn the new surroundings you just moved to, try to stay local when purchasing a puppy and get to know the breeder thru visits. Make a decision only when you feel comfortable with the person and see their care and breeding practices.
After all, you are looking to add a new family member.
I actually asked if I could stop by. She said she doesn't allow visitors, because she spends all her time with the puppies.

She was in pure sales mode on the phone. She bragged on and on about her dogs, tried to convince me that she spent $20,000 for a stud dog from Europe, told me she has people all over the country wanting her dogs....on and on and on. They're clearly doing it for the money.

If I were to detail every red flag, it would make for a very long post.




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Old 01-05-2013, 10:31 AM
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Also, the fact that she was willing to sell us a puppy without meeting US is a red flag, as far as I'm concerned.


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Old 01-05-2013, 10:43 AM
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Shalva, thanks fo catching my typo. Wish I could go back and edit. Thought I had the "does not" in that sentence. Going back I know I just got typing to quick and the intent of a "not" was there.

So here is how I ment it to read:
The Candian standard although it does not have a preference for light colored dogs, it does not penalize them like the US standard does.

Thanks for always adding great perspective to conversations when they range into the "English Creme" realm. You are always doing a great job of educating on this topic. Though I know it must be tiresome, you alway offer great advice/information for those who need it when it comes to Golden Retrievers of the English persuasion.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia M View Post
My first red flag is the fact that she did not invite you to see her place and her dogs before she asked for the deposit. Second red flag is the deposit on a puppy you have not even seen yet. Let me guess it was also non-refundable!

To the OP - IMHO, gove yourself time to learn the new surroundings you just moved to, try to stay local when purchasing a puppy and get to know the breeder thru visits. Make a decision only when you feel comfortable with the person and see their care and breeding practices.
After all, you are looking to add a new family member.
Keep in mind that many of us buy puppies sight unseen. I personally have sent a deposit and gotten a puppy from a breeder who I had never personally met and for a dog that I had not seen. That is not uncommon in the dog world especially for those of us who compete and show. That is NOT a red flag...but it does require knowledge of the players in the dog world, knowledge of the pedigrees, talking to other folks in the area of the breeder etc etc.... but buying a puppy sight unseen or sending a deposit is not uncommon ... actually now thinking about it I have done this twice... once with one of my flat coats and more recently with the young golden we got from Portugal.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJack View Post
Shalva, thanks fo catching my typo. Wish I could go back and edit. Thought I had the "does not" in that sentence. Going back I know I just got typing to quick and the intent of a "not" was there.

So here is how I ment it to read:
The Candian standard although it does not have a preference for light colored dogs, it does not penalize them like the US standard does.

Thanks for always adding great perspective to conversations when they range into the "English Creme" realm. You are always doing a great job of educating on this topic. Though I know it must be tiresome, you alway offer great advice/information for those who need it when it comes to Golden Retrievers of the English persuasion.
Thanks, I do try to jump in on these threads. I think we all have preferences as to what we like for color or size or coat or whatever and unfortunately our english dogs have gotten to be quite a fad here in the states... The reality is that it is a trend in the UK as well. If we look at American style dogs through the years we see changes in head shape, color, overall type as the style changes... the same is true for the UK dogs and while many of them are cream in color or very light gold now, if we look at the UK dogs through history we see the same changes as we see in the American dogs, coat color, head shape, size etc all changes throughout the years. It is true of any breed for an assortment of reasons.

Personally I am not a fan of cream although I have two cream colored dogs here (they are registered as light gold) I do prefer color and as such I am breeding Connie who is a cream/light gold dog to an English dog who does have quite a bit of color but color is honestly the least of my worries as long as they are in the golden spectrum...

There are many falsehoods about English style dogs (and I use that term loosely because many are from other places in europe but still use the term english style) most of them do go back to UK dogs in the recent pedigree even if they are registered as from Portugal such as my boy is. There are good breeders in Hungary and Romania, Russia and other places in Eastern Europe that are trying to do it right, but there are many that aren't. English style dogs are no different than American Goldens in that there are good breeders and bad breeders and it is up to the puppy person to weed them out. They should be looking for the same things in English dogs that they are in American dogs while recognizing that there are some differences.

1. Hips are scored differently
2. UK breeders and European breeders don't do heart clearances as a general rule so don't expect to find generations of heart clearances. They simply don't have the heart issues that we have here BUT they are considering adding it to required clearances. However, a dog living here in the US, the parents should be heart cleared.
3. Elbows should be done
4. Ichthyosis and all PRA's should be done....
5. Eyes like every other dog

so look for hips, elbows, heart, genetics and eyes for the dogs living in the US... if you are importing then there are differences.

they do get cancer... they don't live any longer... check the lines for longevity... and if you need help ask around. there is nothing wrong with wanting a light colored golden .... it is a preference and we can help you find a good breeder of that style.

What is annoying to me is when folks on this board make general statements about all breeders of English style dogs and when they disregard someones preference for an english style dog as unimportant or vanity.... not all of us are like that ... in the same way as some prefer red, or medium gold or whatever some prefer english style and that should be acknowledged and they should be helped to find what they are looking for... while the myths are dispelled at the same time.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalva View Post
Keep in mind that many of us buy puppies sight unseen. I personally have sent a deposit and gotten a puppy from a breeder who I had never personally met and for a dog that I had not seen. That is not uncommon in the dog world especially for those of us who compete and show. That is NOT a red flag...but it does require knowledge of the players in the dog world, knowledge of the pedigrees, talking to other folks in the area of the breeder etc etc.... but buying a puppy sight unseen or sending a deposit is not uncommon ... actually now thinking about it I have done this twice... once with one of my flat coats and more recently with the young golden we got from Portugal.
We got burned getting our dog from a breeder we haven't met. Maybe we would have been in the same situation even if we met the breeder. Trooper came from a reputable breeder with great pedigree. The poor sweet thing had seizures, starting with petite mal seizures at 4 to grand mal seizures at 6 thru almost the age of 13. My DH is blaming himself to this day for having him shipped to him via airplane - somehow he thinks that it is to blame that for his seizures.
One of these days I will pull his paperwork from the filing cabinet. The bond I developed with him made me fall in love with the breed.
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