More puppy/breeder questions - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

Kosmopolitan · #1 (**permalink**) 12-24-2012, 12:13 PM

I've been thinking about this more, and I figured it was just easier to post here and hope for responses.

First, is it better to go to a breeder that breeds specifically for something? Like show or field, etc.? Versus just a good breeder for all around pet types.

Second, I've been considering getting a puppy that's good enough to show in conformation. I show Arabian horses and really enjoy show atmospheres. What is the price difference between a show quality or pet quality puppy?

Third, I'm looking at getting a female puppy this time (my last Golden was a male). Are they harder to find than male puppies? When I've looked at other breeds, it has seemed like that's the case for the good ones.

Thanks!

Jen & Brew · #2 (**permalink**) 12-24-2012, 03:36 PM

In my opinion I think that most reputable breeders will be breeding for the all around dog. Form, function, substance, temperament, movement, type. They should all be breeding for the betterment of the breed. If you're looking for a puppy as a show prospect then I would suggest going to some local shows and meeting some breeders, talk with them about their dogs, take names.

LJack · #3 (**permalink**) 12-24-2012, 04:23 PM

Great questions here are my opinions, I will answer in order.

1. Yes, you want to deal with someone who has a plan. When you say breeds for pets, I get the feeling that they are most likely going to be a back yard breeder. Reputable breeders are breeding for themselves first. That means more attention to things like clearences, structure, movement, trainability, and temperament. I will repost one of the best things I have written below.

2. If you show Arabians, you are probably no stranger to the cost of competition. It is also very costly to be competitive in Goldens. In general the initial cost of the show puppy will pale in comparison to the show/grooming supplies to buy, entry fees, travel costs, the cost to have a handler potentially show this dog, and then the health screenings to be done. In general I would say that most breeders have either a small increase in price for a show puppy or like mine, no difference but the dog will be on a co-ownership.

3. Getting a breeder to part with a show prospect at all may be difficult unless you have previous credentials. If you are a newbie you will normally have to build a relationship and prove yourself. Then you may be offered a co-ownership opportunity. I do think it is hard to find a great show puppy but, I think bitches are harder to come by just based on the machanics of a breeding program. The breeder is breeding for themselves to get that next step forward in their program. How do they normally do this, by keeping a puppy bitch. So, usually right of the bat the "pick" puppy bitch is already taken, if there is even a show quality girl in there. If there is more than one show quality girl then there is a shot, but some litter produce no show puppies at all. Remember, the term "pick" can be misleading. The "pick" of a mediocre litter means little. The 3rd "pick" of an exceptional litter with consitancy and wonderful structure could be a great dog. You also need to fell confident that the person evaluating the litter and/or breeder knows how to pick show puppies. This is where that breeder with a plan comes in. If your breeder has produced, kept, and shown champions in the past, they are doing well in puppy selection. If your breeder has never produced a champion and is touting the second pick girl as the best thing to walk on 4 legs, how can you trust in their opinion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJack

This is a question that a lot of puppy buyers have. I don't want a show dog, why should I care about champions or performance titles in the pedigree?

1. When you buy from a breeder who is actively competing and showing, they are out there in the fancy. They are talking to other breeders, attending seminars, gaining knowledge of structure, heritable diseases, bloodlines and care. This means they are not working in a vacuum.

2. Breeders who compete are actively looking to improve their line. That litter they are producing is one they are hoping will produce the next step in their program. They are working for themselves. You reap the benefit since there are usually a small number of show quality, the rest are pets. Ever hear the addage you work harder when your selfemployed? It is the same philosophy here.

3. Structure, structure structure. Breeders who compete will have more structurally sound dogs. In addition the core four clearences, the dog's structure will determine if it will live most of it's life comfortable with activity or not able to go and do because of structural break down. This is where those Champion titles really come in. Champions are not judged on beauty, but it is a really nice by-product. They are judged on structure, angulation, movement, etc. Your pet puppy will benefit from these attributes.

4. Temperament. I want a dog that comes from stock that has been out in the world doing something. Dogs who compete and title not only prove themselves in that venue, but also that they can handle life beyond their home. Dogs that stay at home may have great temperaments but, how do they behave away from home in stressful conditions. Dogs that compete are exposed to these stresses and succeed.

5. My vanity. Okay, it is hard to look at a golden puppy an not think what a cutie! But, if I have chosen to buy a puppy and not rescue, I want my dog to be gorgeous. Call it vain, but that is what I want.

I know that with parents that are proven in competition that is going to run in the line. I want things like proper coat, dark pigment, great structure, lovely top lines, fantastic headpieces, and lovely expression.

A word on champions in the grand parents generation and further back...if there are not titles in the parents generation, those grand parents titles don't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Quality can be lost in just a generation or two of careless breeding. It is not necessary for both parents to be titled, but it would be nice. At least one should be.

It always boggles my mind when less than reputable breeders point to the Champions in the grandparent or great-grandparent generation as a selling point.

They know that these titles are important and tough to get so they claim that their dog is just as good with out doing anything to "prove" them in competition.

SheetsSM · #4 (**permalink**) 12-24-2012, 04:32 PM

LJack I always appreciate your posts--so informative

Kosmopolitan · #5 (**permalink**) 12-24-2012, 08:11 PM

LJack, thank you SO much! That was as informative as I could've hoped to read! I wondered about the previous credentials, so I'm glad you touched on that, too.

I've located a few breeders near me, so I'm researching them now. I haven't heard back from the local clubs for referrals, but I'm in no hurry since it's the holiday season. As long as I hear back at some point, I'll be content

Thanks!

DanaRuns · #6 (**permalink**) 12-24-2012, 08:53 PM

If you want a puppy to show, you might have better luck if you're willing to take a male. As LJack said, the breeder will likely keep the pick female, so you're unlikely to get a show quality female unless you are very close friends with the breeder and enter into a co-ownership agreement. The pick male, however, may be available.

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The Following User Says Thank You to Jen & Brew For This Useful Post:
Kosmopolitan (12-24-2012)

The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to LJack For This Useful Post:
DanaRuns (12-24-2012), goldenjackpuppy (12-26-2012), kfayard (12-25-2012), Kosmopolitan (12-24-2012), SheetsSM (12-24-2012), Tahnee GR (12-24-2012)

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