A disease in female goldens?? - Page 2 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-15-2012, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by edwinng1110 View Post
It is a condition called pyometra. Is this a bad condition, does this have to change my ways in choosing this breeder?
Pyometra is a serious condition to the point of being fatal if not treated.

Breeding females that are prone to pyometra need to be treated differently than other intact girls as they will have a higher likelyhood to develop a case of pyometra if they cycle and are not bred.

So if somebody has breeding female that is prone to Pyo, they are likely to breed back to back litters and then spay.

If she has two females with this condition, I would want to know if they are related? Are there heritable traits for the condition that can be passed on to the next generation.

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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-15-2012, 03:11 PM
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I am not a breeder, and this comment may be out of line, but if the breeder (who has the bitch with pyometra) breeds her "back to back" are you meaning the bitch will give birth to a litter of puppies, and then immediately will be bred again so she has no rest time before having another litter?
So, here's my reflection: I would think a bitch who had pyometra suffered physically as a result. So, she is bred, which again (I would think) drains her physically. So, if she is bred "back to back" (and then spayed) is the reason for the back to back breeding just to maximize the gain for the breeder (this gain could be "fame" or actual money) before the bitch is spayed?
This doesn't seem to be in the bitch's interest.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-15-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lgnutah View Post
I am not a breeder, and this comment may be out of line, but if the breeder (who has the bitch with pyometra) breeds her "back to back" are you meaning the bitch will give birth to a litter of puppies, and then immediately will be bred again so she has no rest time before having another litter?
So, here's my reflection: I would think a bitch who had pyometra suffered physically as a result. So, she is bred, which again (I would think) drains her physically. So, if she is bred "back to back" (and then spayed) is the reason for the back to back breeding just to maximize the gain for the breeder (this gain could be "fame" or actual money) before the bitch is spayed?
This doesn't seem to be in the bitch's interest.
There is a much higher risk for a bitch to get pyometra again if she is not bred on the next heat cycle. So to reduce the risk of pyometra it is best to breed the bitch than to leave her with an open heat.

And keep in mind, back to back means at least 6 months apart because they come in season only every 6 months or longer apart.

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-15-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lgnutah View Post
I am not a breeder, and this comment may be out of line, but if the breeder (who has the bitch with pyometra) breeds her "back to back" are you meaning the bitch will give birth to a litter of puppies, and then immediately will be bred again so she has no rest time before having another litter?
So, here's my reflection: I would think a bitch who had pyometra suffered physically as a result. So, she is bred, which again (I would think) drains her physically. So, if she is bred "back to back" (and then spayed) is the reason for the back to back breeding just to maximize the gain for the breeder (this gain could be "fame" or actual money) before the bitch is spayed?
This doesn't seem to be in the bitch's interest.
Back to back means the bitch is bred the next time she cycles. That might be six months later or more.

You're kind of making some assumptions, the least of which is that breeding is about making money, and breeding back to back just means more money in the breeders pocket, or that a bitch is so depleted after a litter that it takes at least a year or longer to recover. In either case those assumptions are not correct.

Breeding isn't always black and white. There is a lot more gray to consider in the decision making process than absolutes. A particular bitch may possess traits very important to the future of a breeding program. If the breeder loses her contribition, it can set the breeders program back several years. You have to weigh each breeding individually on its own merits.

Many Reproductive Specialists now recommend back to back breedings (assuming the bitch is healthy), over skipping cycles. This is a change from what has been the norm for decades. So, I would not automatically assume that breeding back to back is somehow bad or unethical, what really matters is the overall health and condition of the bitch when deciding to breed or not.

In the case of a bitch that has a history of pyo, you're risking the health of the bitch by leaving her intact and NOT breeding her when she cycles. If you do choose to breed, you're dealing with an "At risk" pregnancy right out of the gate. The care of a bitch under such conditions is both time consuming and expensive.

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-15-2012, 10:28 PM
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I was wondering about the second breeding (not the first one after she was dx'ed with pyometra). What is the purpose of breeding her a second time (instead of spaying her after the first breeding)? I named fame (meaning, the offspring could be fabulous dogs) as well as financial (meaning, the cost of bringing the bitch to the point where she can be bred is a financial outlay for the breeder).
So my question was, was the 2nd breeding to benefit the bitch or the breeder?
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 09:23 AM
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Often, in fact usually I think, if a girl pyos after a heat, she will not have a successful pregnancy that time. So these two girls pyoing during their previous heats does not automatically mean they had puppies.

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgnutah View Post
I was wondering about the second breeding (not the first one after she was dx'ed with pyometra). What is the purpose of breeding her a second time (instead of spaying her after the first breeding)? I named fame (meaning, the offspring could be fabulous dogs) as well as financial (meaning, the cost of bringing the bitch to the point where she can be bred is a financial outlay for the breeder).
So my question was, was the 2nd breeding to benefit the bitch or the breeder?
I think you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions here, and should probably re-read swampcollie's post.

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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgnutah View Post
I was wondering about the second breeding (not the first one after she was dx'ed with pyometra). What is the purpose of breeding her a second time (instead of spaying her after the first breeding)? I named fame (meaning, the offspring could be fabulous dogs) as well as financial (meaning, the cost of bringing the bitch to the point where she can be bred is a financial outlay for the breeder).
So my question was, was the 2nd breeding to benefit the bitch or the breeder?
If a reputable breeder is in this situation and this dog is important to their breeding program, they may want to breed the dog the second time to give them as many chances as possible to produce a puppy or puppies out of that line so they don't lose that line in their breeding program, before they spay the dog. They may only get one show quality puppy in a litter, or none at all.

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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 05:01 PM
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I know nothing about this breeder, my comments are directed to the pyometra discussion. Pyometra occurs when the uterus has been primed by the estrogen release in estrus followed by the release of progesterone. At a meeting that I went to, the repro vet said it was also more common in a uterus with endometrial hyperplasia and/or uterine cysts. Ironically, I heard of a golden breeder in this area that has brought a number of bitches into a local animal hospital with pyometra(a vet tech told me and probably shouldn't have), so it got me to thinking if there was some hereditary link. Recently we spayed a ten month old golden with a pyometra. She had the most unusual uterine pathology that I have seen in a young dog. So,we sent it in for histopathology as a professional interest, sure enough, it was pyometra with endometrial hyperplasia and (infected) endometritis. In 26.5 years as a vet, I have never seen Pyo in a bitch that young. And yes, after a bitch has a Pyo, you need to breed,on the next heat. The conditions that caused the Pyo in the first place are still present with each subsequent heat. I am going to a Continuing Education in January, given by Dr. Hutchinson, the repro guru, and I will see what he has to say about that and hydrops.

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 05:17 PM
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Enlightening discussion--once you breed a litter following a pyo occurrence should you then spay or continue to breed?
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