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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 07:35 PM
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Lots of great discussion here!
I haven't been to a CGC test for a few years, but the last one I went to, some of the dogs that were allowed to pass should not have, no way, no how.
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CH Rosewood Little Giant, UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP DJ VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

waiting at the bridge:
My first dog, and my most special girl
Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
and my heart dog
Gibson's Golden Guy, CD, CGC, TDI ( 01-31-1998 - 01-02-2012) a.k.a. "Toby", "HRH"
run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:02 PM
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No way, no how will anyone convince me that a CGC is harder to attain than a CD. My Can Ch Celebrations Taking Liberties CGC is no where close to getting a CD from Novice B. she walks respectfully on a leash, stays, etc. She does not heel which she would need to do to,get a CD. If I want to prove trainability, mine get straight up obedience titles....
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:20 PM
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It really just depends on what a particular dog's issues are. My first golden failed her first CGC because every time the evaluator would pick up a paw, she would flip over on her back. Yet the next month she got her first CD leg. She always hated having her paws messed with, and paws arent touched in obedience.

Other dogs can't handle having their owner go out of sight. Something else not needed for a CD.
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AJ's Maiden By the Sea CDX RE (Annabel)
Mud E Paws UDX OM2 RE OBHF (Conner)
Sunfire's Flying Head Over Heels UD BN RE WC (Flip)
Sunfire's Ashes To Gold (Phoenix)
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2012, 06:21 PM
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My thanks to everyone who has contributed to making this thread informative and to keeping the tone positive. I am delighted to make it a sticky, as tippykayak suggested.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2012, 08:41 PM
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After taking the time to read through this thread, I too am very thankful for all the information that has been explained and discussed. One thing I might suggest is a explanation of all the titles everyone is throwing out there. As a novice in this area, I had to use Google for help and found a great site with some descriptions to help me understand what you all were talking about. On the other hand, I guess if people were really into showing they should already know these prefix titles.
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R.I.P. My Beloved golden, Brandy 12/24/95 - 4/2/12, 17 years of love, always in my heart <3
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:55 AM
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Roushbabe, that site is great.
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CH Rosewood Little Giant, UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP DJ VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

waiting at the bridge:
My first dog, and my most special girl
Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
and my heart dog
Gibson's Golden Guy, CD, CGC, TDI ( 01-31-1998 - 01-02-2012) a.k.a. "Toby", "HRH"
run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2012, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tippykayak View Post
I do agree here. It's obviously really complicated, so I wouldn't take a fearful adult as proof, per se, that the dog had below-average stability of temperament, but I think one of the defining characteristics of "good temperament" is that the dog is relatively durable in the face of bad experiences—not hard-headed necessarily, but durable. There are plenty of dogs who are soft to correction who have very stable temperaments when it comes to new experiences and scary experiences.
I don't think that "softness" on the training front is necessarily correlated to a timid or neophobic dog. A dog who is timid may (or may be far more likely to be) also be soft in training, but the reverse is far from true. In working dogs they separate the concept of "nerve" or "steadiness" from the concept of "soft/hard" in training. I think that distinction is useful here. A dog can have "strong nerve" or extreme "steadiness" but be "soft" and I think this is where most Goldens are especially in comparison to working breeds like GSDs and Malinois (hmmmm....what is the plural of Malinois?).
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Creekwood Tanglefoot Selchie CD, RN, AX, AXJ, CGC, CCA, (A.K.A. Selli-Belle) Golden

Valentine Byrd McDuff (A.K.A. Duffy) Golden/Sheltie

Tanglefoot Autumn Dexter CGC (My Heart Dog at the Bridge) Golden
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selli-Belle View Post
I don't think that "softness" on the training front is necessarily correlated to a timid or neophobic dog. A dog who is timid may (or may be far more likely to be) also be soft in training, but the reverse is far from true. In working dogs they separate the concept of "nerve" or "steadiness" from the concept of "soft/hard" in training. I think that distinction is useful here. A dog can have "strong nerve" or extreme "steadiness" but be "soft" and I think this is where most Goldens are especially in comparison to working breeds like GSDs and Malinois (hmmmm....what is the plural of Malinois?).
I totally agree, since I have both a fairly hard/very steady dog and a very soft/ very steady dog.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2012, 10:13 AM
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As to the CCA, I agree it is an extremely valuable teaching tool, but I also think it is a valuable tool for breeding decisions.

From what HVgoldens posted about the CCA program taken from the GRCA website

The purposes of the CCA program are to (a) provide a noncompetitive

means of evaluating and scoring the conformation
qualities of individual Golden Retrievers against the Breed
Standard (as opposed to a competitive “dog-to-dog” comparison
as in dog show competition).

If someone (i.e., Me) has a Golden that is not a show type dog, or even if they are from show lines but has something about them that would mean they are not likely to win in the ring (for example, my girl has what the CCA evaluators considered a "working" coat, which is perfectly acceptable in the standard, but realistically would not win in the ring), but they want have an independent certification that that dog does conform to the standard before they decide, or to help them decide, if they want to breed their dog.

In addition, although a passing score in the CCA is 75 from three evaluators (yes there are other restrictions in that score), a dog can get three 75s or they can get three 99s, so there is a way to get more information about how closely a dog conforms to the standard through the CCA.

Finally, to the point that some dogs people do not think should pass do pass since evaluators do not fail dogs, that is a problem with the evaluator and as time goes by with the club that asks that evaluator to be part of their CCA evaluation. When my girl got her CCA, maybe a third of the dogs that day passed. Granted, the evaluators were known as being sticklers and not at all likely to pass a dog to prevent hurting someone's feelings. One dog failed the temperament portion of the test due to timidity during the individual evaluations.

In short, I think the CCA program is an amazing educational program, but it CAN also be useful as a tool to independently evaluate potential breeding dogs.

Note, although my girl did pass her CCA, I decided not to breed her.
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Creekwood Tanglefoot Selchie CD, RN, AX, AXJ, CGC, CCA, (A.K.A. Selli-Belle) Golden

Valentine Byrd McDuff (A.K.A. Duffy) Golden/Sheltie

Tanglefoot Autumn Dexter CGC (My Heart Dog at the Bridge) Golden
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:08 PM
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Correct Temperament is another concept that is difficult for people to grasp and understand. As referenced earlier in this thread the breed standard states


Temperament -- friendly, reliable and trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility toward other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character.

Getting the temperament correct is one of the most difficult challenges if not the most difficult challenge a breeder faces. I'll put it very bluntly, there are a LOT of Golden Retrievers that lack correct temperament. To get the temperament right, the breeder first must have a thorough understanding of the breed, its' purpose and reason for being. The breed standard quite prominently states in the very first paragraph the breeds intended purpose, "Primarily a Hunting Dog". At no time does the breed standard describe a Golden Retriever as calm, gentle or laid back.

A Golden Retriever with correct temperament will possess great courage and still have a little streak of mean and nasty buried in its personality. A streak of "hostility" being correct? For a Golden? Yes, it is an essential element to the Golden Retrievers personality. Look to the purpose stated in the breed standard for the golden retriever, this is supposed to be a hunting dog. That means it will encounter wounded game as part of doing its job. The dog has to chase down, get in there and do what is necessary to subdue the prey and return it to the hunter. A large goose is a formidable opponent for a Golden, nearly 1/4 of the dogs size. A Golden Retriever is not really a large dog so it needs ample attitude and courage to be successful in doing its job.

Getting all of the essential personality traits together, and in the proper proportions, is what gives a dog "Correct" temperament for the breed.

It is very very hard for a breeder to get the temperament right and maintain it over the long term in successive generations. You're always making slight adjustments to keep the balance.

It is NOT easy.

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