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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 01:45 PM
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Aggressive dogs absolutely do not belong in the conformation ring. With Goldens, I think, it's pretty rare that such dogs are shown to finish, unlike some other breeds. That doesn't mean that Golden breeders won't finish dogs that should not be bred. I pulled a dog from specialing when I found out he was sterile. The breeder had a fit and reminded me of the contract that required me to show him to his "full potential." It wasn't for breeding purposes that she wanted him to continue to show! Lol!

While conformation shows pay lip service to being about breeding stock, my own opinion is that they are often more immediately about simple competition and ego gratification. Because, let's face it, AKC shows aren't truly about identifying and rewarding good breeding stock. If they were, all dogs in the show that met appropriate criteria would be pointed, not just a single class dog and bitch. Now, having said that, I'm sure breeders will express disagreement with my statement, as breeders all over the country do rely on AKC titles as evidence that their dogs are good breeding stock.

In my humble opinion, for the purpose of identifying dogs appropriate for breeding, I wonder if the CCA might actually be a better gauge.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 02:11 PM
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Don't aggressive dogs get disqualified from showing if they show aggression in the ring?
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:55 PM
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If they are openly aggressive in the ring, generally, yes, but I have seen certain judges let things go for certain handlers. And I have been asked to take a "difficult" dog in the ring for a handler on more than one occasion--with the specific instruction to keep his head away from other boys--this was a dog who had done some big winning in Canada. So yes, unfortunately, they are out there, and as a breeder you have to be very careful to meet those dogs and know what is lurking in the pedigrees as well.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 03:15 PM
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Unfortunately, there are goldens who have less than wonderful temperaments and they finish their championships and are bred. This is where the part about the hobby breeder doing what is right for the dog and the breed is most important. There is absolutely no way we will ever be rid of temperament problems in our breed. It was there in the dogs that were the founding stock that was imported into the US. Now, when I am talking about aggressive, I am more talking about dominance aggression and not any aggression toward people.

The breeder is the one who has to decide if the dog has the proper temperament and other qualities that are required to be a good example of the breed and be bred. Because of the issues with the founding stock, a bad temperament can come up from almost any breeding. It does not make the breeder a bad breeder. What makes them a good or bad breeder is how they deal with it!!! If this is a dog that they own, will that dog be spayed/neutered so that it cannot contribute to the gene pool. If it is a pet puppy, do they help the family do everything possible up to and including taking the dog back so it can be put down, if need be?? Yes, these things can and do happen because breeding is far from easy.

As to conformation shows, this is how breeding stock has been determined for many, many years. Yes, there is only one winner in each sex and thus with the number of dogs in competition with a breed like our own, it does make it difficult to finish a dog, at times. However, I am a breeder/owner/handler and I have finished plenty of our dogs myself and have also finished dogs that were bred by me but owned by other people. If you have a good dog and the dog is presented well, the dog will do well. The biggest issue with conformation shows is that people are not really honest with what their dogs faults are and if they are worthy of being a champion. The dog needs to be in good condition, the dog need to be in good coat, the dog needs to be trained and the dog does need to fit the standard.

As to a CCA being a better gauge for breeding stock?? I do not agree with this at all. I am a CCA evaluator and that was not what the program was set up for at all. It was to help teach people/breeders about the standard in real life and so they could see how their dog would be evaluated by their peers in a non-competitive setting. If you look at the information on the GRCA's website about the CCA, you will find that it states these are the minimum requirements for a golden to meet the breed standard. I would say that an AKC championship would be the upper requirements for a dog to meet the standard.

Do dogs finish that should not?? Do politics come into play?? Absolutely, but there are politics in every facet of our lives and dogs are no different. It is our job as a breeder/exhibitor/student of the breed to learn what the standard really means and how to apply it to the dogs and be able to look at dogs without being kennel blind and through rose colored glasses.

Every dog has their faults. There is no such thing as a perfect dog and if a breeder tells you their dog has no issues, run. They are being kennel blind. A good breeder should be able to tell you the areas of their breeding program that they are working on and the strengths and attributes of their breeding program along with each individual dog in their breeding program. We all have areas that are strengths and things that we need to work on.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 03:43 PM
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Awesome post Jenn, thanks.
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My first dog, and my most special girl
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and my heart dog
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run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:39 PM
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I am learning so much from this discussion. And, with this info and hindsight being 20/20 now know I did everything WRONG. I now know my sweet girl with all her problems came from what is termed a BYB. The fact that she came with "papers" is worth nothing. She is only eight months old and we are almost seven thousand dollars in debt from vet bills. (THR).
The fact that the "breeder" named the 'sire' Goober should have been my first clue!
Will we do things differently next time around? Absolutely! Do I regret having her? Not for a minute. Just wish I had found the forum beforehand. Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and experiences.
Dale
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:42 PM
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Between SC's initial clearheaded definitions and HVG's contributions, this thread NEEDS to be a sticky.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobysmommy View Post
I'll wade in very carefully here and suggest that there may be another breeder definition, sort of in a grey zone: the "lapsed" hobby breeder. This is the sort of breeder where I got my Toby (unfortunately). Please don't misunderstand me - Toby is my heart, the love of my life, and I'm thrilled to have him, but the fact is that despite best intentions, I didn't do enough research before I got him. His breeder has (had) some CH and CH pointed dogs, used to show/compete and did some (but as it turned out not all) clearances, but didn't keep them current. I would be reluctant to denigrate them to a BYB, but they are, at present, not being responsible hobby breeders. For whatever reason, they've dropped the ball. Am I wrong in thinking they're in a grey zone, a step above a BYB?
Sounds very much like the breeder I got my dogs from. At one point in time, they were doing things "right", but as time wore on they seemed to get a little sloppy in some areas. I, too, would hesitate to put them into any of the original breeder definitions.

Last edited by Millie'sMom; 11-26-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 04:46 PM
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Dale, we don't love the dogs any less because of where we got them. My Toby dog who I lost in January was my heart and soul. He was from a BYB, too. He had lots of health issues, and I learned my lesson, but it didn't mean I didn't love him totally, and I never regretted one minute of his life with me.
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CH Rosewood Little Giant, UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

waiting at the bridge:
My first dog, and my most special girl
Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
and my heart dog
Gibson's Golden Guy, CD, CGC, TDI ( 01-31-1998 - 01-02-2012) a.k.a. "Toby", "HRH"
run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njoyqd View Post
I am learning so much from this discussion. And, with this info and hindsight being 20/20 now know I did everything WRONG. I now know my sweet girl with all her problems came from what is termed a BYB. The fact that she came with "papers" is worth nothing. She is only eight months old and we are almost seven thousand dollars in debt from vet bills. (THR).
The fact that the "breeder" named the 'sire' Goober should have been my first clue!
Will we do things differently next time around? Absolutely! Do I regret having her? Not for a minute. Just wish I had found the forum beforehand. Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and experiences.
Dale
Dale most people do get their first dogs from a BYB because those breeders are the easiest to find. Certainly none of us are born knowing that we should get a dog from a hobby breeder and even if we did know, most of us wouldn't know where to start looking. The BYB's and other breeders out number the hobby breeders by far. They also advertise in newpapers, bulletin boards, pet stores and pet finder type websites. Unfortunately, most hobby breeders don't do much advertising because their puppies are generally placed by word of mouth and referrals so they are spoken for before the puppies are born.

Even among breeders and other exhibitors in the fancy, most of us got our first golden from a BYB. I got mine from one of the "fringe type" breeders. They had clearances but the pedigrees were pretty muddled and they weren't competing with their dogs in any way. Back then, goldens only had hips and eyes done. There were titled dogs with the great grandparents and very well known ones.

I don't regret having Jazz for one minute. He taught me what a golden really is and got me hooked on the breed. I had wanted a golden from the time I was little and after him, I knew there was no other breed for me. We did competitive obedience together and that led me to wanting to try conformation and eventually become a breeder. He was my start and introduction to the breed and he was a wonderful ambassador of the breed. He had his issues Conformationally, he was really bowlegged and long in the rib cage among other things. He did have the big golden heart and everyone he met was his friend. I was always the first to know when someone in our training circle was getting a new puppy because they always wanted them to socialize with Jazz. He was an awesome obedience dog and an even better best friend and what more could a person ask for!!!!!
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