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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2012, 08:34 PM
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And right there you have summed up the problem of what's happening in the breed (you said hunting, not field trials, and it is very distinct).
You should be able to take any well bred golden out, train them, and hunt with them, with no FC's or AFC's needed in the pedigree. Obviously that's no longer the case, so hunters are looking for the FC and AFC pedigrees to prove the dog still has some of the original instinct and ability for which the breed was noted.



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Originally Posted by TheZ's View Post
Don't people looking for a Golden for hunting like to see FC's and AFC's in the pedigree? What am I missing?
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CH Rosewood Little Giant, UDX VER RA SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

waiting at the bridge:
My first dog, and my most special girl
Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
and my heart dog
Gibson's Golden Guy, CD, CGC, TDI ( 01-31-1998 - 01-02-2012) a.k.a. "Toby", "HRH"
run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2012, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotel4dogs View Post
You should be able to take any well bred golden out, train them, and hunt with them, with no FC's or AFC's needed in the pedigree.
I think the only way to be able to attain that, in one aspect anyway, would be to not allow a dog to be given a CH. in conformation until they prove themselves in the field. That way, all Goldens including those bred more toward the conformation lines, would have to be capable hunters. Don't they kind of do this in Europe? Before a dog can get a championship, don't they require a test on their working ability and their stability of temperament? I don't know if it's all breeds but I thought working breeds have to be tested first.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2012, 08:32 AM
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whew, we're going to get into some sticky territory here.
My personal opinion is that the only way we're going to be able to do that is if breeders quit breeding for "just one thing", be that looks, agility, obedience, field, whatever. Of course, that will never happen. But when you breed for just one thing, the others seem to fall by the wayside and we end up with goldens who are no longer the versatile dog they originally were.
As always, I like to use Tito as an example. Most people here know his "story", but if not....he was bred to be a nice structured pet with a good temperament. Nothing more. I bought him as a pet for my daughter, originally on a limited registration with a neuter contract (which was obviously since lifted). I had no plans to do anything with him except love him.
He wasn't bred to be a show dog. He wasn't bred to be a field dog. Etc., etc., etc.
But look at what he has been able to accomplish. If you look at his pedigree, there is nothing in there that would foretell of what he has done.
He was bred to be a versatile companion dog, and he is what people call an "old-fashioned golden retriever". He is what the breed used to be.
So why has Tito been so successful? Lord knows it's not ME, I've never done any of this before with my dogs.
Because he is to the golden standard in ALL ways.
He succeeds in obedience because he is intelligent and highly trainable,and because like all good gun dogs, he is not overly reactive to the environment, and he is able to focus well. He isn't at all fearful or skittish, and he gets along fine with all other dogs.
He succeeds in agility because he's a medium sized, well muscled, athletic dog. Again, as per the standard. Also, the ability to focus is very important in agility.
He succeeds in the field because he has tremendous prey drive, and tons of bird instinct. He has a natural love of water, and the gentle mouth that the breed is supposed to have.
And that is why we need to breed the dogs to ALL of the standard, not just to the physical part of it.
Tito truly can and will do anything that is asked of him, and as I said before, I believe him to be the norm for a well bred golden, not the exception.


Also, the LRCA (labradors) have done that, requiring at least a WC (working certificate) of their dogs. So what ended up happening is the WC for labradors got dumbed down to the point that I think my cat probably could have passed.
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CH Rosewood Little Giant, UDX VER RA SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

waiting at the bridge:
My first dog, and my most special girl
Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
and my heart dog
Gibson's Golden Guy, CD, CGC, TDI ( 01-31-1998 - 01-02-2012) a.k.a. "Toby", "HRH"
run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.

Last edited by hotel4dogs; 12-05-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:38 PM
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Do you feel that Tito is the exception or that more people don't go the different routes with their Goldens? I'm not talking the conformation ring, I know that hardly any of our pet Goldens would do well there, mine included. That doesn't happen too often in any breed and those dogs that were determined to be pets but go on to their CH. are unusual. But maybe if given the chance, a lot of Goldens would do good in the field. But because the majority of owners choose not to go that route with their dogs, we'll never know.

I can say for sure that Chance would freak at the sound of a gun being fired, (me, too). But then again, he's never been exposed, especially at an early age. I know that he's extremely "interested" in birds, (and squirrels ). So who knows, right? Maybe our "pet" Goldens would do well in the field if given the opportunity...
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhit View Post
Do you feel that Tito is the exception or that more people don't go the different routes with their Goldens? I'm not talking the conformation ring, I know that hardly any of our pet Goldens would do well there, mine included. That doesn't happen too often in any breed and those dogs that were determined to be pets but go on to their CH. are unusual. But maybe if given the chance, a lot of Goldens would do good in the field. But because the majority of owners choose not to go that route with their dogs, we'll never know.

I can say for sure that Chance would freak at the sound of a gun being fired, (me, too). But then again, he's never been exposed, especially at an early age. I know that he's extremely "interested" in birds, (and squirrels ). So who knows, right? Maybe our "pet" Goldens would do well in the field if given the opportunity...
I think my girl Winter and I are the poster children for giving dog games a try.
At the tender age of 49, I got my first dog ever. She was acquired as a pet, nothing really performance in her pedigree. I believe we told her breeder that we were looking for a light colored puppy, who would swim, play fetch, and would be easy going. I took her to puppy obedience so we would have a well behaved girl. It turned out that I loved taking classes with her so I just kept signing up. One thing led to another and on her first birthday we ended up at a field training day. That day I watch something amazing click on in Winter. This was a game she already knew how to play. Fast forward 2+ years and we are one pass away from her Senior Hunter title and she still amazes me. No FC's, MH, or even JH in her pedigree. I think there is one WC in 5 generations but the retriever is alive and kicking in her.
So I say, what the heck give field or some other dog game a try.

Last edited by hollyk; 12-05-2012 at 11:01 PM.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2012, 03:45 PM
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Karen, I strongly feel that Tito is NOT the exception. Not at all. I think a lot of the pet goldens, which is all he was meant to be, would be capable of doing many, many things if people chose to follow that path. And we need to be sure in our breeding practices that the breed never loses that ability and versatility.
Like Holly's Winter, another prime example. She is doing field, and obedience. I'm positive she could do agility, too.
No, they can't all be CH. But if they are well bred goldens, they can get out there and do a lot of other doggie games, and do them well, and have a great time doing it. And the bond we form with our dogs when we do these things is incredible.
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CH Rosewood Little Giant, UDX VER RA SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

waiting at the bridge:
My first dog, and my most special girl
Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
and my heart dog
Gibson's Golden Guy, CD, CGC, TDI ( 01-31-1998 - 01-02-2012) a.k.a. "Toby", "HRH"
run free my sweet, sweet loves, I will love you and miss you forever.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2012, 04:35 PM
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Another thing that I was thinking...in all the years I managed pet shops, the majority of my customers with Labs hunted. I'd say at least 65% and that's a conservative estimate. My customers with GSPs, it had to be at least 85%. Goldens, not that many. I'd give it a guess of 25%, if that. Again, I'm sure that many more had the capabilities to do field work, but they were not utilized in that venue, but other breeds were.

I also remember that when I first started working in shops, over 35 years ago, we regularly carried and sold out of duck scent, pheasant scent and rabbit scent. And we couldn't keep the bumpers in stock, either. No matter how many we carried, they would sell out. But over the past, at least 20 years, I don't remember ever selling or stocking the scents in any other stores I worked at. The training bumpers yes, we carried them, but hardly ever sold one. Maybe they're buying these things elsewhere, IDK. Still, I was never even asked about them, ever.
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