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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldensGirl View Post
While we're dreaming about perfect breeding practices, I would love to see more attention paid to breeding dogs that will be companions for us "pet people," who are actually in the majority. Too often we get the puppies that don't make the cut as show dogs and I suspect that the structure of competitions tends to move the breed towards athletic, high-energy dogs who may not be ideal for family life in an average home. That may contribute to the number of Goldens who end up in rescues or shelters.

It would be wonderful to see more "credit" given for dogs that qualify as therapy dogs or otherwise demonstrate a gentle, calm temperament. Better yet would be responsible breeding of Goldens who are intended from their carefully planned conception to be pets. I know some breeders do this and I thank every one of them from the bottom of my heart.
First, hobby breeders don't just breed to breed. They breed to continue on with their breeding programs and because they would like to keep a dog to show in whatever venue they have chosen to show in.

Second, as a hobby breeder, 90% of the puppies I produce do go to pet homes and we have wonderful families who do all kinds of different therapy work with many of them. One is even certified as a disaster therapy dog, which many dogs do not pass the test for. She was the only one of 40 to pass the day she took the test. Anyway, we have dogs who do reading with rover programs, dogs who live in nursing homes, dogs who work in hospitals and dogs who live with children with autism. So, I am happy to see that you did mention there are breeders that breed for good stable, temperaments. However, a golden is a gundog and part of the Sporting Group. They are not supposed to be couch potatoes.

All pure bred dogs have a standard and breeders must breed to the standard-we cannot just chose the parts that we would like to adhere to and ignore the rest. If we did, the dogs would no longer be golden retrievers.

Our standard says>>>
General Appearance -- a symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Over-all appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts.
Temperament -- friendly, reliable and trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character. Such actions should be penalized according to their significance.

If you read the other parts of the standard, you will see the words broad, muscular, strongly muscled, powerful, well-coordinated mentioned many times. Again, because this is a sporting breed and as such, they do require exercise and stimulation.

I have also seen the breeders and many others on this list be VERY open and honest when someone is inquiring about breeders if those dogs will "need a job to do" or be a little more to handle than the average pet owner is looking for.

Last, I may be a breeder but my dogs are my pets and our family companions. They live in our home and are a part of the family. Many breeders dogs live like this. I do not breed super high energy dogs because that is not what the standard calls for and I do have MANY of them living in our house. But, I also take them to run almost on a daily basis, I throw balls and bumpers and do other things to keep them engaged and stimulated so they do make good companions. The photo below shows what my living room looks like most days! lol
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:26 PM
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I love the photo of your living room, hvgoldens4! We only have two dogs now, but they have their own sofa, including steps up to the seat to help my older dog get to his favorite place. Two large dog beds adorn the floor, which is somewhat littered with the dogs' toys.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Cari View Post
WAY too many hobby breeders! All that happens when people breed dogs because "they can" or want they experience is creating more and more possibly badly bred, unwanted dogs.

Also, while its great to be able to afford a dog at a lower price, when backyard/hobby breeders sell their pups (who are likely not exemplifying the breed standard and has not health certs)and the price of a dog is set as so anyone can afford it you wind up with someone that has not invested a lot into an animal and is therefore subject to "giving up" or deciding they don't want it down the road. When dogs are so readily available and at low quality where the bad breeding can continue you don't know if the purchaser is really serious about being a dog owner.

I've seen people buy a hobby bred dog because it was cheap and appeared to have good breeding but they decide down the road that the dog is too much and get rid of it either by neglect or surrender. This is the source of overcrowded pounds and dogs continuing to breed with health/breed standard faults.

In my opinion it goes back to hobby breeders and the like. When someone pays a larger sum of money from a reputable breeder then there is a commitment to that animal. I'm sure it still happens but people who invest money into a dog that is breed standard and is healthy, they take care of it not only because they were willing to go into their savings money to pay for it but they decided to go with a good breeder because they actually care about the condition of the dog. Also with many big breeders, the purchaser has to sign a contract saying they will not breed the dog they purchase along with other stipulations. This fixes the chance that the high quality dog is going to a home where it will not be used for breeding and will be cared for.

My beautiful Yukon is the result of this "I bred her because I could" mindset. His Golden mother was left at a pound with 8 four-week old puppies. The owner had surrendered them because quote, "she did not wat them and it was an accident" She had the male and the female golden and she had gotten pregnant. She kept the male and got rid of the mother and the resulting pups. Yukon was one of the pups. Mind you, Yukon is an unbelievably fantastic dog. Smart, beautiful and well-behaved and so far healthy. But what about what happened to the mother and the other 7 malnourished, filthy puppies that were in the pound for weeks? While my intent with Yukon is to pamper and love him until the day he dies,is that the intent of whoever else got the others? Maybe the mother is being used for breeding again because whoever saw her in the pound saw the beautiful puppies she had made...I don't know but yes I think this happens too much because of people who are misinformed about what betters a breed etc. A dog should only be bred if it betters the breed or follows standard.

Yeah, too many breeders :-) Thanks for listening to my rant. haha

Backyard breeders and hobby breeders are nowhere near the same and should not be lumped together. The top breeders of some of the best dogs, who do everything right, are in fact hobby breeders.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:33 PM
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I second the love for your living room photo.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:11 PM
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There may be a need for the public to have better working definitions of a good hobby breeder. There is a breeder in my state charging 2,000 for pups with parents who have no titles and spotty clearances, but then there are breeders doing all clearances and competing to high titles like MH and AM CH, yet charging 1,200 to 1,500. However, the nice pet people cannot always tell the difference.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selli-Belle View Post
Golden breeders/exhibitors group, there has so much sadness recently due to Hydrops, a condition where a pregnant female retains to much fluid in their uterus. This can easily lead to loss of pups and the mother. These people LOVE their dogs and have put so much into the pups they hope to see that something like Hydrops can crush them.

I decided not to breed my Selli for a number of reasons, a major one being the fact that I could not bear the risk of losing her due to breeding or having puppies.
I love this point, bc I am right there right now. My 22 month old girl is all done bother her american championship and her grand champion title. After she turns two providing all is well with her final clearances, I do plan to breed her. . . except I am panicky something like hydrops might happen to her. I love her so much- I can easily see deciding not to take a risk for pups. While it is easy to say we need more excellent breeders who do it for the right reasons, it is SUCH a serious moral undertaking.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:18 PM
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These posts really seem to me like deliberate attempts to be inflammatory and upset people. I thought about reporting them, but I thought it might be better to simply collect them together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden999 View Post
Too few breeders allows the demand to get high enough that the breeders can raise their prices skyhigh and demand whatever they want contractually
Good hobby breeders take a loss on breedings. They don't raise their prices because they can. They keep them artificially low.

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But I'd never buy from anyone but a backyard breeder as things stand, because I need an affordable dog
You continually post this fallacy. A dog with a history of health clearances is the most affordable dog possible. A backyard bred dog comes with lots of hidden costs that you have ignored across a clean dozen threads at this point. The numbers on dysplasia rates are public information, as are the costs of surgery and the other associated costs. Buying an "affordable" backyard bred dog is deliberately blinding yourself to the risks in order to save an amount upfront that pales in comparison to the cost of the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden999 View Post
You know, if the pretentious breeders would stop looking down their nose at their prospective customers and try to meet their needs instead of bending them to their will, they might have fewer of said customers going to backyard breeders that the pretentious breeders hate.
It's incredibly unfair to label down-to-earth, hardworking hobby breeders as "pretentious" the good ones and the vast majority are anything but pretentious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden999 View Post
This can just as easily be achieved by not multilating my dog...
So incredibly unnecessary. You say that you don't like that people say you should have to neuter your dog and that they should respect your decisions vis a vis neutering, but you feel free posting insulting, inflammatory language against neutering.

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I can't help but wonder if some classism might be in play...
You have zero evidence that anybody advocating for clearances and proper breeding practices does so for reasons of class. It's about the health of the dogs. Accusations of pretension and classism are just a cheap sham to cover over your unwillingness to acknowledge the math and your willingness to gamble the health of your future dog for a few bucks.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tippykayak View Post
These posts really seem to me like deliberate attempts to be inflammatory and upset people. I thought about reporting them, but I thought it might be better to simply collect them together.
Obviously anyone with a minority opinion who doesn't sit down and shut up is inflammatory and out to upset people and should be reported.


Quote:
Good hobby breeders take a loss on breedings. They don't raise their prices because they can. They keep them artificially low.
They can do what they want. But I think it's possible to produce a good healthy litter of puppies for a lot less than some choose to spend that would enable them to charge less. We've talked about this at length before, but there are some "corners that could be cut" that would ensure a litter that is more likely to be healthy and to the breed standard than a a byb litter without doing things like taking two weeks off work to fly across the country to find a stud dog, or getting frozen sperm like you're breeding a championship race horse (Both things cited in the last list of breeder expenses I saw posted here). But so few breeders operate in the in-between.

Quote:
You continually post this fallacy. A dog with a history of health clearances is the most affordable dog possible. A backyard bred dog comes with lots of hidden costs that you have ignored across a clean dozen threads at this point.
The idea that every backyard breeder dog will have severe health issues that incur huge costs and that every dog from a breeder who meets your standards will not is also a fallacy. You might improve your odds going with a dog in category #2, but you're still rolling the dice. We've talked about this before and plenty of folks, some reluctantly, have come forward and said "Yes, I had a dog I got from a byb with no significant health problems" or "No, my dog from a more expensive breeder with stricter standards was not free of significant health problems". Someone also mentioned that there is no evidence that selective breeding reduces the risk of cancer, which is the most common end of life scenario for golden retrievers.


Quote:
It's incredibly unfair to label down-to-earth, hardworking hobby breeders as "pretentious" the good ones and the vast majority are anything but pretentious.
I think breeders who look down at other breeders and look down at potential dog owners who can't afford their prices would qualify as pretentious. That doesn't mean all non-backyard breeder breeders are pretentious. Just some of them.

Quote:
So incredibly unnecessary. You say that you don't like that people say you should have to neuter your dog and that they should respect your decisions vis a vis neutering, but you feel free posting insulting, inflammatory language against neutering.
If "mutilation" is inflammatory and insulting, then "fixed" is equally so (As if there is something wrong with dogs in the natural state), but no one minds the later, so I figured the former should also be acceptable, especially given that I included the caveat that I respected every dog owner's right to make his or her own decisions on the matter.

Quote:
You have zero evidence that anybody advocating for clearances and proper breeding practices does so for reasons of class. It's about the health of the dogs. Accusations of pretension and classism are just a cheap sham to cover over your unwillingness to acknowledge the math and your willingness to gamble the health of your future dog for a few bucks.
You took my quote out of context. I didn't say that people advocating for clearances and proper breeding are classist. Look back at the post you pullled the classism quote from and look at what it was being applied to. It wasn't breeders.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:48 PM
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Friends, we have tried to keep this thread on topic and within the bounds of friendly discussion. Since that is no longer possible, I am closing this thread.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:54 PM
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It's unfortunate that what began and continued as a healthy dialogue with productive conversation for several pages had to be closed. There is room for differing opinions if we are respectful.


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