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Old 11-23-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldensGirl View Post
Perhaps some definition of terms would be helpful.

Years of reading on this Forum have taught me that most people here use the term "hobby breeder" to refer to breeders who work hard to improve the breed, investing in testing and certifications aimed at eliminating inherited diseases and competitions to validate the worth of the dogs. These breeders are not in it for the money and they rarely if ever recoup all of their costs from a litter of puppies.

"Backyard breeders" are people who breed their dogs without knowledge of or interest in the genetic issues. Testing and certifications are often missing and competitions are usually few. These breeders may or may not be making money from their dogs, but they show little regard for the health of the breed as a whole.

"Puppy mills" are only in it for the money, caring little for the dogs or the breed.

Using these definitions, I believe that we don't have enough hobby breeders, but we have way too many backyard breeders and puppy mills. I say this having bought only one dog from a reputable breeder in a lifetime of having them as companions, while my other dogs have come from backyard breeders or animal shelters. I suspect that I have paid far more in veterinary costs and heartache as a result.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I guess I was using the terms incorrectly. Hobby breeders = reputable lol By the definitions you gave I meant that we have too many non-reputable breeders. That goes for all breeds too I think, not just Goldens.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cari View Post
Hobby breeders = reputable lol By the definitions you gave I meant that we have too many non-reputable breeders. That goes for all breeds too I think, not just Goldens.

This is a great comparison chart that I've referred a lot of people to:

A COMPARISON OF: Responsible Hobby Breeders and Backyard Breeders/Irresponsible Breeders
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:47 PM
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I wish there were more well bred dogs. Too many people have asked if Molly was purebred. A fellow golden retriever owner told me she didn't think Molly was purebred because she had never seen one with such a big head. WOW did I want to reply with something snarky but I did not!!! *Smile and walk away*

But when you have other golden retriever owners asking if your well bred golden is purebred, there is a problem.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhuynh2 View Post
I wish there were more well bred dogs. Too many people have asked if Molly was purebred. A fellow golden retriever owner told me she didn't think Molly was purebred because she had never seen one with such a big head. WOW did I want to reply with something snarky but I did not!!! *Smile and walk away*

But when you have other golden retriever owners asking if your well bred golden is purebred, there is a problem.
Yes! With my last show boy (who really was stunning in his prime) I, also, had people -- even Golden owners! -- ask me what kind of dog he was, or if he was pure bred. Amazing and sad that an actual Golden Retriever that is representative of the breed isn't recognized as a Golden even by Golden owners.

Something needs to be done. I suggested self-deportation for all puppy mills and back yard breeders, but it never caught on.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:31 PM
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Sorry for the thread hijack, but I just had to tell kwhit that this is the cutest freakin' picture ever! I just LOVE Lucy!

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:16 PM
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I never see any category for professional breeders. Breeders who do it as a business. They breed, show, do clearances. I have never seen them mentioned in any of the threads about breeders.
I know one in particular that started out as a serious hobby breeder and turned it into a business. I know she isn't the only one. Why aren't they ever mentioned?
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:19 PM
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Sorry for the thread hijack, but I just had to tell kwhit that this is the cutest freakin' picture ever! I just LOVE Lucy!

I hope I get a picture 1/2 as good as this one of my furbutts
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DanaRuns View Post
There is no shortage of dogs in the world, and no shortage of Goldens. Yet, it can be very hard to find a good quality Golden puppy. What do you think: is the breed and the world better served by having more people becoming hobby breeders, or are there enough (or too many) already?
I think we need more breeders so we can create some downward pressure on pricing and more less restrictive options for people who don't like to sign contracts that keep them from raising their new puppies in the ways they feel are best. Too few breeders allows the demand to get high enough that the breeders can raise their prices skyhigh and demand whatever they want contractually, which forces a lot of people who can't afford it or refuse to deal with the restrictions to go the backyard breeder route or pay cash to someone on Craigslist or whatever. And that does mean bad things for the breed in some respects. If people watching out for the breed standard could find a way to reduce their prices, make more puppies available, and stop it with the contracts and the delays and deposits and stuff, there would be no market for backyard breeders. But I'd never buy from anyone but a backyard breeder as things stand, because I need an affordable dog, and I want no strings attached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick James View Post
Also you have to consider the convenience/quick gratification factor.


Most often when you dealing with a reputable breeder, it is not just a matter of deciding that today is the day to get a new puppy. Often, with reputable breeders, you do your research, you find a litter that you like and then you wait for them to be born and/or at least finish being raised to 7-8 weeks. No instant gratification.

With Puppy mills and BYB's, if instant gratification is what you seek, you will most often be able to satisify it.

Today, our society is very instant gratification based and that causes a lot of undesirable consequences.
You know, if the pretentious breeders would stop looking down their nose at their prospective customers and try to meet their needs instead of bending them to their will, they might have fewer of said customers going to backyard breeders that the pretentious breeders hate. Just saying.

You want people to buy from you instead of the people you disapprove of, you've got to meet them where they're at. That might mean lower prices, same day adoption, no or minimal contracts, etc.. Don't want to do that? Then deal with the fact that people will continue to patronize backyard breeders because they meet their needs better.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 01:00 AM
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I don't think it's a loaded question, at all! Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Here's where I am coming from:

Goldens are way overbred. But the problem is that people get puppies from back yard breeders and puppy mills rather than from reputable breeders because those BYB/PM pups are easy to find and are inexpensive. If there were more reputable hobby breeders, and healthy pups of good type, structure and temperament were therefore easier to find (and perhaps less expensive because of increased supply), perhaps it would be better overall for the breed and also for people buying Goldens. And since hobby breeders are generally conscientious about following their pups, there might be fewer unwanted or neglected ones.

OTOH, perhaps it would just increase the overall number of Goldens, and would increase rather than decrease the number of unwanted or neglected Goldens. I just don't know.

My gut feeling is that we need more good hobby breeders. If more quality puppies were available, I think it would be better for the breed in the long run. As it is, there are more poor quality Goldens than good quality ones. If we upped the number and percentage of quality pups, that has to be a good thing, right? But the conventional wisdom says we already have too many dogs, and it would be bad for dogs to breed even more of them. So, I don't know. Not intended as a loaded question, but a sincere inquiry into the philosophy and effect of improving the breed and making good Goldens more available to casual buyers.

The cold hard facts are that reputable hobby breeders cannot and never will be able to keep up with the demand for well bred goldens, nor do most of us want to have that many puppies!!! Most hobby breeders that I know, have a few well bred, planned litters per year. I have to have time for my family, time to go to shows, time to do other things with the dogs and if you are breeding, it takes an inordinate amount of time to raise a litter of puppies properly.

There are also quite a few people who would have no problem affording a puppy from a hobby breeder, but I have no interest in placing a puppy with them. Being able to afford the cost of the puppy is one small part of what is a good home. I have had attorneys, doctors and even vets that I have turned down as owners for our dogs. Any of them would have no problems with affording a dog-the issue is will they be a good home? Many of them do not have the time that is required to really raise a puppy properly and without that time, there will be problems ahead.

Also, even if there were more puppies available, I really fail to see how that would lower my costs of raising a litter which is where the price of my puppies is derived from. More puppies won't lower my food bill, my vet bills, the stud fee I have to pay, the costs associated with showing, etc, so I do not think that has anything to do with the cost. The cost of a well bred puppy is from what is going into them. When it costs $5-10000 to finish an American CH on a dog, $1200-1500 for a stud fee, $100 plus for ONE progesterone test and the same for brucella and then we add on clearances and things begin to really skyrocket as to the money that is invested in the dogs, before puppies ever hit the ground.

There are very few "unwanted" dogs. There are plenty of people who should have never gotten a dog and would have been much better off with a stuffed animal, rather than a living, breathing creature. There are also mixed breed puppies that you can find in a pound that usually need a home but again, people also tend to want a golden because they know what that dog is going to grow to be with looks, temperament and size, as well as the activity level of the dog. Unfortunately, those mixed breed puppies are also the result of someone else's lack of responsibility and I don't personally feel that I should be penalized(not being able to get the purebred dog that I want) because someone else is being an irresponsible pet owner. There are also plenty of dogs who are given up for rather serious behavior issues and some for lack of training and even more for health issues. Again, many of these people would have been better off with that stuffed animal.

I applaud those who support rescue and adopt that way, we have also taken in plenty of rescues over the years that obviously had nothing to do with our breeding program or they wouldn't be rescues, but again, if someone wants a purebred puppy, they should be able to get that dog, if they can care for it and meet the other basic needs. Those things are yet another thing that set a hobby breeder apart from the rest-the homes are screened, references are checked; they don't just get the dog because they showed up with cash in hand.

My waiting list is pretty full thru the summer-why?? I cannot keep up with the inquiries or the demand for puppies, even though I wind up referring most inquiries to other breeders because we just don't have puppies available. Again, I wouldn't want to, either. The puppies would be losing out, my family would be losing out and my dogs would be losing out. There are only so many hours in the day and raising a litter is a TON of work to do it right.

People often ask how I am feeling about the puppies when they leave....obviously, it is hard to see them leave because I have put my heart and soul into raising them and spent hours and hours playing with them, feeding them, cleaning up after them, trimming nails, giving baths, teaching so many different things, but-and this is a BIG but, by the time the puppies are 8 weeks old, they have become a 24 hr a day/7day a week job. It is always, the puppies need fed, the puppies need to go out, the puppies need to work on this, the puppies need to go for a ride in the car, the puppies, the puppies, the puppies......I think you get the picture there. I cannot keep up with that pace indefinitely and there comes a point in time where the puppies need more individual time than I can possibly give to them, even with devoting most of my waking hours to them, so it is time to say goodbye and for them to move on to their new lives with their new owners. I miss them, absolutely, but I am not sad-afterall, I have done my best for them to have the most wonderful families waiting for them.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 01:12 AM
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Sooooooo, you're saying you're in favor of more hobby breeders rather than fewer?
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