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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick James View Post
Also you have to consider the convenience/quick gratification factor.


Most often when you dealing with a reputable breeder, it is not just a matter of deciding that today is the day to get a new puppy. Often, with reputable breeders, you do your research, you find a litter that you like and then you wait for them to be born and/or at least finish being raised to 7-8 weeks. No instant gratification.

With Puppy mills and BYB's, if instant gratification is what you seek, you will most often be able to satisify it.

Today, our society is very instant gratification based and that cause a lot of undesirable consequences.
That's the thing. The vast majority of puppy buyers want a puppy. They are not breed aficionados. They know nothing about disease or health clearances, and hearing about it would sound ridiculous to them, because they all grew up with BYB puppies that were "wonderful" and "just fine."

I'm thinking in particular of one person (I'll call her "Lisa") who I'm having a play date with tomorrow. She loves Goldens and has three of them, but knows literally nothing about them. She buys repeatedly from a back yard breeder who does not get clearances, does not prove her dogs, and actively markets to pet buyers. In fact, because the city has come down on this breeder for having too many dogs, "Lisa" has taken a female pup for the purpose of raising it and allowing this breeder to plop out litters in Lisa's home. Lisa just loves the dogs. She doesn't know anything about hip dysplasia. She's had Goldens for 20 years and if she's had a dysplastic dog she doesn't know it.

I'm convinced that if Lisa had had easy access to a reputable breeder when she thought of buying a puppy, she'd be having nothing but quality Goldens right now. As it is, her whole life experience is buying dogs out of parents without clearances or titles, and she's had no problems with it, so she doesn't see why that's even an issue. And that's how a LOT of people think, but they wouldn't think that way if they had easy access to good hobby breeders.

In order to find a good hobby breeder, you either have to luck out or you have to really want to find a good hobby breeder and go to a lot of trouble finding one. That's even true here in California where you can't spit without hitting a Golden. Even here in my very upscale gated community, where there are Goldens everywhere you look, most of them are obviously poor quality and not from serious hobby breeders.

With most folks, I think it's a combination of instant gratification and lack of education (and not even understanding why one needs to be educated). I don't think it's a "look down your nose at those who merely want instant gratification," though there's certainly an aspect of that to it, cuz when little Johnny wants a puppy we get him a puppy. I think it's more that most well-meaning folks simply don't get why quality is important, and they never will unless they happen across a reputable breeder by chance.

[/rant]
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:39 PM
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There will always be a market for the BYB/High Volume Breeders/Mills because our society is of a "I want it now" mentality. So long as people act on their impulses, they will keep these "drive thru" puppy profiteers in business. I agree that there are many that just don't know better. However, I see people that research their DISHWASHER more thoroughly than they do a puppy that lives, breathes, and will be with the family for 10+ years. I know people who I've referred to my breeder, to breeders in my club, etc--- but they just couldn't wait, didn't care, etc.

One doesn't become a great breeder overnight. Maybe one day I will have a bitch and breed, but right now I am more than content with my boys. There is no pressure to breed, but I LOVE to show and have been very successful in my short amount of time. I feel that many put the cart before the horse and buy a bitch and then want to breed without taking the time to learn OR have a mentor. Having a mentor is so important-- having more than one is perfect! There is just so much to learn and it doesn't happen overnight. My local club has more inquiries for puppies than our member-breeders can fulfill. So I do recongize the need for more quality puppies, reputable hobby breeders, and more "up & comers" but I don't think we need to fulfill a shortage overnight. I think it probably varies geographically, too.

So, I guess the answer is yes, no, maybe so!
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:42 PM
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I think there is a self-limiting number of reputable breeders for any breed. To do it reputably it is a lot of work and a lot of heart-ache and lots of money for what?

Many breeders do it for awhile and then they suffer a heart-break from a litter or a specific dog and get out of breeding. On the Facebook Golden breeders/exhibitors group, there has so much sadness recently due to Hydrops, a condition where a pregnant female retains to much fluid in their uterus. This can easily lead to loss of pups and the mother. These people LOVE their dogs and have put so much into the pups they hope to see that something like Hydrops can crush them.

I decided not to breed my Selli for a number of reasons, a major one being the fact that I could not bear the risk of losing her due to breeding or having puppies. Breeders who have more fortitude than I do will still limit the number of litters any one of their beloved girls have. Additionally, these breeders will only have the number of girls they can love and care for properly. Those two factors limit the number of puppies a good breeder will produce.

I do think that there are enough good breeders, it just requires a determination of a puppy buyer to find them, not a bad thing considering how much work having a puppy is.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:48 PM
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DanaRuns,

I think the biggest hurdle is lack of education, and education also does not happen overnight.

I had three dogs of other breeds that I bought from BYB's. I THOUGHT I was doing the correct thing by not buying from a puppy mill or pet store, but as the years went on, and I started researching and reading, I learned otherwise.

I try to pass on my wisdom to others when I hear they are shopping for a dog, unfortunately many do not want to hear it.

I'll tell you though, these same people do definitely notice the difference in the quality of your well bred dog, compared to their BYB when they are side by side. Maybe, when you have your playdates with "Lisa" you can start to educate her, in baby steps.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:51 PM
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I think that we all know that BYBs are here to stay, no matter how many responsible breeders there are. We can hopefully get rid of puppy mills, but BYBs, no way in he**. The poster that stated our desire for instant gratification hit the nail on the head. No matter how many quality litters are bred, those breeders will not sell to any Joe Blow that comes along. They will be selective in their choices of homes, as they should be.

So where does that leave those buyers that really shouldn't have a puppy/dog or just don't want to be bothered with dealing with breeders that actually care about the puppies they produce? You got it...buying from the BYBs. I'm talking about people that consistently get rid of dogs, have no vet references, hoarders and just generally irresponsible people.

IMO, we could always use more responsible breeders. Mainly because of the fact that breeders that have been around a long time will one day stop breeding. So we need to have others to step up and follow in their footsteps. And quite possibly with more ethical breeders, those qualified buyers that would otherwise not know about responsible breeding might be more likely to come in contact with the good ones as opposed to the BYBs.

I know that this is probably a controvertial subject, but I'm going to go there anyway. I believe that responsible breeders should have ads everywhere. They should inundate sites like Kijiji, hoobly, puppyfind, ect. Put their ads right up there next to all the puppy mills' ads, BYBs' ads and make sure that they list all the health testing they have done and how they can prove it. This is one of the ways to reach the masses and let your average puppy buyer see how it's done right. Breed clubs should also be listed and should help their breeders with the cost.

Pictures alone would impress people. They could actually see the difference in a well bred dog vs the ones put out by the bad breeders. I know a few Dane breeders that do this consistently and have made quite an impact on people looking for puppies. They always have ads up and if they don't have puppies at the time, they refer them to other reputable breeders. They also take a ton of time to educate. It works...if more breeders did it, they might be able to take those sites away from the scum breeders. Just a thought...
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubbysan View Post
DanaRuns,

I think the biggest hurdle is lack of education, and education also does not happen overnight.

I had three dogs of other breeds that I bought from BYB's. I THOUGHT I was doing the correct thing by not buying from a puppy mill or pet store, but as the years went on, and I started researching and reading, I learned otherwise.

I try to pass on my wisdom to others when I hear they are shopping for a dog, unfortunately many do not want to hear it.

I'll tell you though, these same people do definitely notice the difference in the quality of your well bred dog, compared to their BYB when they are side by side. Maybe, when you have your playdates with "Lisa" you can start to educate her, in baby steps.
You know, I'm trying to educate her, but she just thinks I'm stuffy and hifalutin. And maybe I am! What's going to make educating her more difficult is telling her this stuff while her dogs are playing with my rescue Golden who is 47 lbs. full grown and a structural mess. (She's the one covered in mud in the pic below.)

Lisa knows I'm getting another show prospect male pup, and she has already suggested that I breed him to her female pup, and when I tried politely to explain why I'm not going to do that, she just declared me a Golden snob. :shrug:
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kwhit View Post
I know that this is probably a controvertial subject, but I'm going to go there anyway. I believe that responsible breeders should have ads everywhere. They should inundate sites like Kijiji, hoobly, puppyfind, ect. Put their ads right up there next to all the puppy mills' ads, BYBs' ads and make sure that they list all the health testing they have done and how they can prove it. This is one of the ways to reach the masses and let your average puppy buyer see how it's done right. Breed clubs should also be listed and should help their breeders with the cost.

Pictures alone would impress people. They could actually see the difference in a well bred dog vs the ones put out by the bad breeders. I know a few Dane breeders that do this consistently and have made quite an impact on people looking for puppies. They always have ads up and if they don't have puppies at the time, they refer them to other reputable breeders. They also take a ton of time to educate. It works...if more breeders did it, they might be able to take those sites away from the scum breeders. Just a thought...
I'm not sure why that would be controversial. Sounds like a fantastic idea, to me.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:04 PM
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I also heard that reputable breeders do not want their specific breed to become too popular.

As much as I love to watch dog movies, especially ones that have golden retrievers in it, such as the Airbud and Buddies movies, these movies do a big injustice to the breed. It makes people think irrationally to want to get a particular breed without doing the proper research, therefore increasing the demand, and then the BYB's and puppymills getting involved to supply that demand, and then the quality of the breed goes down.

We saw this with Cocker Spaniel's with the Lady and the Tramp movie, dalmations with the 101 dalmations, and the golden retrievers.

I have to admit myself, I was never in the market for a golden retriever until my daughter started asking for a gold puppy.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by DanaRuns View Post
I'm not sure why that would be controversial. Sounds like a fantastic idea, to me.
Mainly because those sites are well known as BYB/puppy mill sites so most breeders shy away from them. A lot feel horrified if anyone would even suggest for them to advertise there, no matter what the reason. And I can see where they're coming from, but if more did it, it could be a great educational tool.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DanaRuns View Post
You know, I'm trying to educate her, but she just thinks I'm stuffy and hifalutin. And maybe I am! What's going to make educating her more difficult is telling her this stuff while her dogs are playing with my rescue Golden who is 47 lbs. full grown and a structural mess. (She's the one covered in mud in the pic below.)

Lisa knows I'm getting another show prospect male pup, and she has already suggested that I breed him to her female pup, and when I tried politely to explain why I'm not going to do that, she just declared me a Golden snob. :shrug:
Yep, that is a big problem, and I find myself biting my tongue at times, and waiting for the right times to say what I say. When you get your show puppy, she will see the difference.

I remember when I got Brady, when one of my friends first met him, the first thing she said was "OMG, his back is so straight!"
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