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Old 11-13-2012, 07:25 PM
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How important is a breeders reputation with other breeders when making a puppy purcha


We recently moved from the Midwest to Colorado and have been searching for a puppy for a few months. We thought we had found a breeder but when we went to a local dog show and asked around the people who had goldens were very negative about this person. Is this normal and just them being jealous or should we take it as a warning? The people we talked to seemed very nice and no one tried to sell us a puppy so Iím thinking there may be something to it. One of them told us to look at the past litters for the mothers of the current litters and it seems they both had puppies before they turned two years old. Would this be enough to get a bad name? The current litters the moms are all over 2 now. Another breeder told us it was a breeder who just cared about winning and I wonder if that is where the jealously comes in. I was nervous about posting because I donít want to make anyone feel bad but we need to start figuring out where we are getting our puppy from and if we need to keep looking. We really wanted to get a puppy before Christmas and it seems hard to find a well-bred one now but also donít want to regret where we get one from. Here is the breeder we were considering :: Captivate Goldens ::
Thank you so much
Frank
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:42 PM
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Do the parents have OFA hip,and elbow clearances? Do both parents have heart clearances by a cardiologist and a current eye clearance in the past year? If the answer is yes to all of these things,mthen go for it. Both litters have nice pedigrees...
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:45 PM
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I have seen the puppies from Marianne and no doubt they are gorgeous puppies. Parents should have clearances (but always always double check www.offa.org to make sure) This would include Hips, Elbows, Eyes, and Cardiac.

She has bred a few litters before they turned two and received their full clearances. It just depends on what you feel comfortable with.

Is that the only thing that the breeders said about her. I would email Marianne and ask her about the previous breedings. Ask for references.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:28 PM
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Thank you. We will most likely ask the breeder directly but wanted some outside views. We learned about health clearances early on because we had the help of a few good breeders where we use to live. It was too early to get a puppy before the move but we learned so much about the basics but are having a hard time figuring out that grey line of good and bad breeders. At first we really wanted to get a mix breed or a rescue. When we finally decided getting a purebred golden puppy was the best match for our family we also wanted to make sure we supported the best breeding practices and breeders really concerned about the animals and that is why I asked my question. Frank
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:30 PM
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Following the link to litters on her website it appears that the parents of both litters listed there have all clearances. Certainly these are beautiful dogs. She has chosen impressive sires, too. And it's good that she shows them. Just from a quick look at the website, she looks like a good breeder. But I would make sure the current litter's parents have clearances. With that, and absent anything to raise red flags, I'd feel very comfortable with this breeder.

P.S. if you get a Chilly pup, we will have half-siblings! As I am getting a puppy out of the same sire.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:53 AM
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I am not commenting about the person/kennel in this post but more the situation because this situation is becoming more widespread within the breed and I personally see it as rather alarming. When a breeder is newer to the breed and just starting out and trying to build a foundation for a breeding program, it would be expected that the breeder would wait until the dogs are 2 years old and can get their final clearances, the breeder has time to ammass knowledge about the dogs and the lines and that the dogs have time to reach mental and physical maturity so you know what you are really working with. We do also have this as part of the GRCA's COE and while that is not a set of rules, it is more of a guideline, one would hope that someone who is hoping to start a line would be mindful of those guidelines. This is not always the case.

It was that at one time a breeder would maybe "prove" a young male dog who had all his prelims in order when he was close to 2 years old by breeding him to one of their own girls. This would be done by someone who has a lot of experience in the breed and someone who is well versed with the dogs that they are working with. While this may seem like a bit of a double standard of sorts, a male dog doesn't have to deal with the pregnancy and raise a litter. All of a sudden, there is now a great rush to breed girls under the age of 2 years old and some are citing that it is "safer" for the girls when they are younger and thus less prone to pyometra, uterine inertia and other breeding problems. Breeders are using information from reproductive specialists to try to justify these breeding practices because the repros say it is safer to breed them younger rather than waiting until they are older. However, the repros are not saying to ignore the parent clubs recommendations on clearances and other things. While an accidental breeding can certainly happen and has happened to most breeders once, one has to start to question when a breeder has multiple "accidental breedings".

I was recently on a committee with the GRCA to revisit the requirements for our Outstanding Sire and Dam program. The major reason for the GRCA looking into this was complaints from other members as to the early breeding of our goldens. When looking at results online and because I am also the GRCA's conformation statistician, I have seen dogs as young as 10 mos old siring litters of puppies and I have also seen girls at about 18-20 mos old giving birth to litters(so they were 16-18 mos old when they were bred). Sorry, I don't agree with this practice and I would never condone the behavior. It takes goldens a while to mentally mature and that is also part of the reason that the COE suggests waiting until the dogs are over 2 years old before breeding them besides the fact that they need final clearances and need to be given time to physically mature, as well so that you can really make accurate breeding decisions instead of just breeding to a stud dog dujour. Asking one of my girls to be a mom before they are 2 years old is just not something that I personally am at all comfortable with. Being pregnant and raising a litter is a lot of stress on the girls and they need both mental and physical maturity to do the job well, as well as a lot of support from the breeder. How those puppies turn out has a lot to do with the job that mom does with raising them. Some of my girls haven't been bred until they were closer to 3 and some over 3 because I did not feel they were ready to be mom's. All of these things are considerations that a breeder needs to look at before deciding to breed one of their girls.

Thankfully, in this situation, her girls did go on to get their final clearances. However, that is not always the case. I do know of a male dog who was bred multiple times at around 10 mos old and without having done any prelims. He did not clear his hips and has a littermate that did not clear her heart. But, there are now all these puppies on the ground.......so now what????

I can assure you that it has nothing to do with jealousy on the part of other breeders and rather an expectation that we all do what is best for the dogs themselves and you will find that most reputable breeders do adhere to the GRCA's COE pretty closely. When someone who has very little experience in the breed or with breeding all of a sudden appears to be throwing caution to the wind, so to speak, no-you won't be hearing wonderful things about them from their peers and it is not something that we as breeders take lightly at all(saying something that could be construed as negative against a fellow breeder) So, one then has to ask yourself-while the dogs may have clearances now, do you want to support this type of breeder? A tough question and probably a little more than what you had bargained for with your post. Just because someone is showing their dogs, does not make them a reputable breeder. There are a lot of different elements that need to be there to be considered before someone is deemed a reputable breeder.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hvgoldens4 View Post
[I]t is not something that we as breeders take lightly at all(saying something that could be construed as negative against a fellow breeder)
I don't want to take away from your fantastic post, which deserves to be reposted a hundred time. But the quote above made me laugh. Golden Retriever breeders can be some of the cattiest people on the planet. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a breeder criticize and say blatantly negative things about the person or dogs of another breeder they consider a "close friend." And then have the "close friend" trash that first breeder right back. With both being members of the national and local clubs, producing great dogs. It's bizarre. It's like a sport for many of them.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:23 PM
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Captivate Golden Retrievers and breeder opinions

I can’t thank you enough. Between the posts and private messages it has become clear we want to look another direction. Sometimes what looks good upfront doesn't tell the whole story.

Thank you everyone and what hvgoldens4 wrote is exactly what I have heard as we have asked around in the last few days. The breeders we talked to were very careful about what they said and you could tell they intentionally were screening how they really thought. They were in no way mean but you could tell they struggled with recommending her or allowing us to believe it was an ethical option. It was obvious they didn't have respect for her and why we became very confused and turned to this group. The breeders at the show tried very hard to be nice and guide us to find the answer on our own and at no time did they bad mouth anyone. They simply made it obvious that we had more research to do and once we did then we had more questions about what makes a truly ethical breeder. We have had a hard time deciding on getting a purebred anyway since there are so many shelter dogs needing homes. We only want to support the very best breeders out there.

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Old 11-14-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaRuns View Post
I don't want to take away from your fantastic post, which deserves to be reposted a hundred time. But the quote above made me laugh. Golden Retriever breeders can be some of the cattiest people on the planet. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a breeder criticize and say blatantly negative things about the person or dogs of another breeder they consider a "close friend." And then have the "close friend" trash that first breeder right back. With both being members of the national and local clubs, producing great dogs. It's bizarre. It's like a sport for many of them.

I was speaking about when talking to someone who was inquiring about puppies and looking for a referral. I do not like to say anything negative about any other breeders and will say nothing at all before I would "trash" another breeder to someone. I much prefer to make more general statements and let someone draw their own conclusions.

As I said, it takes more than just showing dogs before I would consider someone a reputable breeder.
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