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Old 11-13-2012, 01:31 PM
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Ridgeview Goldens will have puppies on the ground 12/1

FYI, for anyone in California interested in a quality puppy, Ridgeview has a litter of 8-10 pups due at the end of this month. I've met the breeder and she is fabulous. She is taking puppy reservations now. It looks to be a good litter. Pedigree: Roxy X Sonny

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Old 11-13-2012, 11:01 PM
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I noticed my Gambler's grandfather (Sunbeam's Cruise Control) in the 5 year generation.
AND, of course I think Gambler is VERY HANDSOME and wonderful.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:38 AM
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Very nice pairing

I don't see Summits current CERF listed in www.offa.org- It may not have been fully processed and posted yet. Just make sure to see a copy.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:56 AM
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Sonny's eye clearance is current. I suspect it just hasn't been sent in yet. It should be a lovely litter! Obviously I'm a little biased since they will be half-siblings to my Kira. And I cannot say enough good things about Melissa at Ridgeview, she is wonderful
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:37 AM
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
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There are an awful lot of reputable breeders who have decided that breeding to Sonny is acceptable. I know that Melissa has thought deeply about this. I guess we'll see.

Your 45% comment isn't necessarily accurate in other than a general sense. I've read the study that came up with that number, which is general statistical figure for puppies from two parents with ED -- not the case here, as both parents have good hips and elbows. To my knowledge, no one really knows the risks in any particular pairing, and how ED is passed on, and how much of it is environmental, and what the true rate is, as most pet dogs -- the vast majority from most litters -- never get tested or reported. As you correctly note, almost all of Sonny's siblings were sold to show homes. Who knows what the rate would be if all pet puppies were tested and reported? That's one of the self-acknowledged limitations of the study you cite.

Also, the Sonny sibling elbows all seem to be from the particular pairing of Ryder x Versace. When you look at the pairings of each of those dogs with others, you don't see the elbows (but again, you also don't see all the pups going to show homes and getting tested). And unfortunately, no one knows how that trait is passed on, or if there is a heightened risk in subsequent generations (beyond the generation of Ryder x Versace pups). In fact, not a single study has noted a second generation increase in ED from pups who passed OFA; and instead have noted in that generation the exact same 11% rate of reported ED. So, the only study on point concludes that pups of parents who both passed OFA hips (even if siblings did not) has the exact same chance of ED as found in the general population.

Of course, none of this is determinative. We all want a LOT more information on these things. Our lack of real knowledge is frustrating, and can lead to a lot of different opinions as we all try to tease out the truth and the real risks. Which, I suppose, is why breeders differ so much in their ideas of what is and is not a risky breeding.

And the reason I am aware of the Ryder issues and ED studies is because of a long conversation with Melissa about this, and how she evaluated the risk in this breeding. She is very open about this. I even contacted some of the owners of Sonny siblings that didn't pass elbows to see what the situation was, hoping I could learn more about this. One was due to an injury. Two others were asymptomatic grade 1 ED in one elbow (both the left). None of them were bred.

I will be interested in seeing how all the great many Sonny pups around the country test as they get old enough for OFA certs. If you go by the study conclusions, this Sonny x Roxy litter should have no greater incidence than the general population. But we shall see.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:46 AM
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I'd also like to make a comment on the point that a lot of breeders are breeding to him....sadly I don't see that as a good sign...It is discussed a lot among breeders about "popular sire syndrome" and breeding to what wins. Sonny has done VERY well in the ring and so has many of his siblings. It has been an incredible breeding in terms of success in the show ring....do you think its possible that fact might allow breeders to rationalize some health risks, in hopes of producing a litter of winners?
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:18 PM
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This is the same discussion that comes up all over the country every time someone breeds to Sonny, because he is the #3 Golden in the country this year (and his sister, Chloe is #1), and because he is being sired prolifically. I doubt we will have anything new to say. The only science we have that I have seen suggests that the odds of ED in issue from any two parents passing elbows is 11%, and does not indicate causation of higher rates due to clearances or lack thereof in aunts and uncles. I would certainly be very interested in reading any study that concludes a heightened risk, as you say, so would you be kind enough to provide me a link or other source that I can read? I'm very interested in learning as much as possible about this so I can tell fact from conjecture. I'm trying to find every scientific study on this that I can. The problem for all of us is that there just isn't enough, at this point. But please help me learn by pointing me in the right direction. I will happily agree with you on all of this if I can "see it with my own eyes."

There is so much conflicting anecdotal evidence out there, it's head-spinning. I know of a litter of six, where three of the pups were exercised hard at a young age, and three were not. The three that were exercised all failed elbows. The three that were not all passed. What does that say? No one knows. But that doesn't stop people from coming to all sorts of conclusions. We are all looking for answers where certainty is lacking.

I'm not sure about your suggestion that it doesn't matter whether we test all pups in a litter or which ones we test. The ones who are tested tend to be the ones that seem most structurally sound at 8 weeks, and which go on to be shown. The ones with perhaps the greater potential for hip or elbow problems often don't get sent to show homes and don't get tested. At 8 weeks you can tell on some puppies that their front ends are not put together in a sound way, and I suggest that those are the most likely to fail elbows and the least likely to be tested.

As for your suggestion that popular sire syndrome might give rise to denial in breeders, that certainly can be the case. We humans have a terrific and unfortunate capacity for rationalization. But I would hesitate to label all breeders who choose to breed to a particular dog (Sonny or another) as rationalizing, just because they make a breeding that you would not.

But you talk about popular sire syndrome, it is definitely a problem. Kirby (Rush Hill's Haagen Dazs) produced more children than China does, and he didn't receive clearances until he was 10 years old. Back then, they just weren't available and people were breeding in the dark, passing on huge numbers of problems throughout the breed. Thankfully, Kirby passed and his kids did pretty well.

I think you've pretty successfully trashed Sonny pups, here. I don't think it's warranted. In a couple years we can compare notes on how all the great many Sonny pups across the country fare on OFAs.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:38 PM
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I think that until every golden gets tested for hips and elbows, you cannot make blanket statements about the heritability of such traits. I have a bitch who has clear elbows and hips and has produced such. Other than her puppy that I kept, all went to pet homes, so no OFA's, but none are clinical for any lameness... I sold one of her brothers whose owners came back to me two years later for a pup. My bitch reaborbed her pups, so I sent them to the breeder that had the sire of the dog they got from me.... At least three pups from that very large litter had clinical ED and HD. I own an extremely sound 8.5 year old bitch from the same sire. While it gave me pause to know he sired ED and HD, you also have to consider that some combos are not meant to be. A friend of mine bred a litter years ago and all pups were clinically sound. She bred the same bitch to a different dog and most male pups in the litter had shoulder OCD.... OFA is also skewed as some animals rads are not sent in when ED and HD are blatantly obvious...

And anyone who has ever bred a litter knows it is always a judgment call. Can any breeder here tell me that there isn't something somewhere in a pedigree that gives them pause???
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