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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by whiskey creek goldens View Post
Ummm she is a member of the pacific rim golden retriever club in good standing. one question how do you know for cretin that that she was not showing and or doing performance work with her dogs before breeding?? answer you don't!!
What there be something to show for her effort then (i.e. titles)? And if not, again the question should be asked why the desire to breed unproven dogs without clearances? How is that practice helping the breed?
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:49 AM
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Wyatt, the father of the current litter was bred before he got his elbow clearance. There is no PENNHIP equivalent for elbows. His clearances are listed on November 12th and the pups were born on October 22th.

No-there is not an equivalent for PennHIP for elbows and the COE for the GRCA is a guide. It is not punative and it is not written in stone.

There is so much valuable information on the forum and so many knowledgeable members. It saddens me when things denegrate into this type of thing. Unfortunately, every person who is going to breed or show starts out somewhere. Some do start out breeding first and then learn that there is a better way of doing things because they do join a club or start going to some classes and wind up doing some sort of competition with their dogs.

We are all individuals and so have our own thoughts on things. When I see someone making strides to improve upon the way they were doing things, I would rather encourage that behavior than beat them with a stick. That old you get more flies with honey thing.

I suppose in a few years, we will all know which way this breeder went but I still see it as a good sign that she is starting to get involved with doing things with her dogs, doing clearances and has joined a GR club. This will only provide her with more opportunities for education on how to do things the right way.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SheetsSM View Post
What there be something to show for her effort then (i.e. titles)? And if not, again the question should be asked why the desire to breed unproven dogs without clearances? How is that practice helping the breed?

Even the best and most knowledgable breeders do have girls that are bred that do not have titles. My Bailey, who is the foundation to all Harborview dogs(and will soon be 16 years old ) does not have titles. Yes, she was absolutely shown and shown quite a bit. She is lacking a major for her American championship and has 17 major reserves. I also have other girls whom I have bred that do not have titles. If that makes me a bad breeder, so be it.

I do not know this particular breeder that is being talked about at all. But, what I do see is that she is making an effort to do things the proper way. Was she always doing that? No. But, isn't what a big part of the forum is for education?? I personally applaud her for going back and doing all the OFA clearances on her dogs.

Not every person in dogs starts out the same way. I am approached quite often by people who have a girl they want to breed and are looking for a stud dog. Some of those people can be educated about clearances and what needs to be done and some cannot. It appears to me, that somewhere along the way, this breeder found that there was a different and better way of doing things. She is going back and doing OFA clearances and is starting to compete with her dogs and recently got her first title(I believe her post said a JH) She has joined a member GR club. She certainly would not be the first person to breed first and learn later. There are some breeders who are often given out as referrals on the forum who started in much the same way.

Sometimes I do think we need to give people the benefit of the doubt when they are making an effort in the right direction. I guess time will tell what happens.

In another thread, we were having a discussion about hobby breeders and if they could fill the need/desire for purebred GR's. My answer was there are not. If this breeder is now doing clearances/has clearances on her dogs, goodness knows, people looking for a puppy could do much worse. Some will come back and say that they could do better......I suppose it is all in how you look at the glass.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by hvgoldens4 View Post
Even the best and most knowledgable breeders do have girls that are bred that do not have titles. My Bailey, who is the foundation to all Harborview dogs(and will soon be 16 years old ) does not have titles. Yes, she was absolutely shown and shown quite a bit. She is lacking a major for her American championship and has 17 major reserves. I also have other girls whom I have bred that do not have titles. If that makes me a bad breeder, so be it.

I do not know this particular breeder that is being talked about at all. But, what I do see is that she is making an effort to do things the proper way. Was she always doing that? No. But, isn't what a big part of the forum is for education?? I personally applaud her for going back and doing all the OFA clearances on her dogs.

Not every person in dogs starts out the same way. I am approached quite often by people who have a girl they want to breed and are looking for a stud dog. Some of those people can be educated about clearances and what needs to be done and some cannot. It appears to me, that somewhere along the way, this breeder found that there was a different and better way of doing things. She is going back and doing OFA clearances and is starting to compete with her dogs and recently got her first title(I believe her post said a JH) She has joined a member GR club. She certainly would not be the first person to breed first and learn later. There are some breeders who are often given out as referrals on the forum who started in much the same way.

Sometimes I do think we need to give people the benefit of the doubt when they are making an effort in the right direction. I guess time will tell what happens.

In another thread, we were having a discussion about hobby breeders and if they could fill the need/desire for purebred GR's. My answer was there are not. If this breeder is now doing clearances/has clearances on her dogs, goodness knows, people looking for a puppy could do much worse. Some will come back and say that they could do better......I suppose it is all in how you look at the glass.
But I also think these breeders would have an easier go on this forum to admit their shortcoming vice defending their poor practices. There have been several new breeders in the last few months on this forum who are now doing clearances but have made no attempts to show their dogs and these are dogs coming from generations of zero clearances & titles. However, when you look at their website--they're claiming these dogs are from great pedigrees & reflect the correct temperament and conformation which is misleading to the unsuspecting puppy buyer.

I would ask again what's the rush to breed? Once you know better, why not slow down or pause the breeding & focus on ensuring your breeding quality dogs? If you're relying solely on spotty clearance history (a chunk of clearances here didn't occur until Nov of this year), how can you assure your puppy buyers you're doing your best to produce a healthy pup that meets the breed standard for golden retrievers.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SheetsSM View Post

I would ask again what's the rush to breed? Once you know better, why not slow down or pause the breeding & focus on ensuring your breeding quality dogs? If you're relying solely on spotty clearance history (a chunk of clearances here didn't occur until Nov of this year), how can you assure your puppy buyers you're doing your best to produce a healthy pup that meets the breed standard for golden retrievers.
I agree, coming there and asking for help in moving in the right direction instead of getting defensive and writing a long diatribe about how you are justifying poor breed practices of the best would go a long way to showing people that you realized your mistakes and trying to change them. That would also require one to STOP breeding prelims without elbow clearances... etc etc and really make a change, not just move in the direction of improving but actually doing it.

I am willing to forego the titles thing... considering that maybe she is showing and maybe she is working on titles... but the clearances thing is a non starter for me... she is either breeding with full clearances or she is not... and instead of making excuses she needs to simply stop doing that and misleading people... the average puppy person doesn't know the difference between a prelim and a final clearance. She shows them a paper and they think oh clearances great... those things in and of itself doesn't bestow confidence that she is moving in the right direction and I am with Sheets on this one... what's the rush?
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:46 AM
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If you go back and look at my previous post a few pages ago, all the dogs she is breeding now DO have hip and elbow clearances. Most also have their eyes and hearts listed on the OFA site as well.

This is where my contention comes from that maybe we need to take a step back. Someone posted in a first post that she had prelims listed on her website-which she does, but those dogs are not the parents of her puppies and she also lists a date that they will be going in for finals. So, I do not think she is being deceitful.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SheetsSM View Post
What there be something to show for her effort then (i.e. titles)? And if not, again the question should be asked why the desire to breed unproven dogs without clearances? How is that practice helping the breed?
Not everyone who hunts, tracks, search and rescue, or trains in obedience with their dogs goes out and gets titles on them. My boy chace was an excellent tracker, field, and obedience dog. The only AKC title I ever put on him was at 10 years old and it was an RN and that was just for fun not to prove him worthy of reproducing.

So No! There may be nothing but photos and reputation to show someone what your dog is capable of. Dose it make him/her unworthy of being used in a breeding program No.

Some people/breeders do not like the way AKC/breed club designs their hunt, scent, and obedience tests and prefer UKC hunt tests or not testing at all. They prefer real world experiences. I know i do.

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Old 12-01-2012, 12:19 PM
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I think people here care so much about the breed that there is a tendency to pounce and pile-on whenever they find someone who doesn't appear to be doing everything perfectly. It's done for the best of motivations, but I wonder if it's sometimes harmful and a little quick to judgment. And perhaps some decent and good people who are learning, evolving or just don't have everything online get unfairly tarred.

I express no opinion on this breeder. I know nothing about her. My only observation is that sometimes this forum can be a bit quick to condemn. And yet, it's hard to condemn the condemnation, because it's done with good hearts and a fierce love of the breed.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:36 PM
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But I also think these breeders would have an easier go on this forum to admit their shortcoming vice defending their poor practices.

Really Not so much!! I have been attached twice on this forum for not doing my clearances. The fact is that I always have from my very first litter to my current litters.

My huge NO NO was that I did not send in my eye and hearts to OFA. This does not mean that I did not have them. It means that I did not send them in to OFA.

Then I came on to defend a friend who I have been mentoring. I was once again put under the microscope. As I had Recently had a litter with a girl that was bred 23 moths and 28 days of age on a OFA prelim. The x-ray was taken 2 day before her second birthday. This was my mistake and I acknowledged it. Did not stop some people from bashing me further NO!

Then they went back and looked up every dog I own. They found that Chace (one of my first dog) who I got as a two year old had been bred without clearances. This is true.... but I DID NOT DO THE BREEDING his original owner did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SheetsSM View Post
There have been several new breeders in the last few months on this forum who are now doing clearances but have made no attempts to show their dogs and these are dogs coming from generations of zero clearances & titles. However, when you look at their website--they're claiming these dogs are from great pedigrees & reflect the correct temperament and conformation which is misleading to the unsuspecting puppy buyer.
I agree many websites/people are dish honest. That does not change the fact that some people on this forum even after looking up show records and accomplishments of the breeders dogs Won't continue to bash them. I have first hand experience with that. most of my dogs are titled as well as having All clearances listed on OFA. I still got bashed.


Quote:
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slow down or pause the breeding & focus on ensuring your breeding quality dogs?
Your interpretation of a "Quality Dog" may be different then the breeders. You may be looking for a show dog. The breeder may be looking for a dog that can do a Job.


My point is that sometimes when someone asks the question "anyone know this breeder" it becomes a witch hunt. Any small infraction no matter how old becomes public record because some people do not take the time to email or contact the breeder for more information before condemning them to unethical breeder status.

It is very sad and wrong

Last edited by whiskey creek goldens; 12-01-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:52 PM
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This thread is staying relatively tame, but I just wanted to give a gentle reminder to keep your posts polite and think about what you have written before you hit "post reply."
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