What do you think about this breeder? - Page 6 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #51 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by K9-Design View Post
Sigh. I so appreciate what PennHIP is doing....but honestly I wish they would go away. I wish they would require a dog to be over 2 years old and I wish they had an online verifiable database. Because isn't it a big coincidence that every fringe breeder who has spotty clearances and has to step up and defend breeding dogs without OFA clearances (NOT PRELIMS), magically is a big proponent of PennHIP? Yet by-the-book responsible golden breeders use PennHIP once in a blue moon and only when accompanied by an OFA score? Wow what a revelation.....
Listen....DO THE OFA FINAL HIP EVALUATIONS. Not a prelim. Not an xray your vet eyeballs. Just do it. Then you don't have to defend anything. End of story. For half the price of one of those JH entry fees you can submit a FINAL OFA xray and get a REAL CLEARANCE.
Penn-Hip is a very valuable tool. I use it quite infrequently as my prelim as it give a total picture of the hip joint by rating the laxity and anatomy of the joint. The theory is that if the laxity is poor that joint could become displastic over time due to the play in the joint. People need to become more educated in Penn-hip.

I work with a vet that does Penn-hip and have had a chance to go to a couple of seminars on penn hip. I highly recommend them if you have a chance to go to one very educational.

That is why I choose to use both tools when considering a dog for my breeding program. Like Sunset goldens I have homed very nice dogs with OFA Good hips but low laxity scores. I have also kept dogs with Fair OFA hips with high laxity scores.

The issue I have with OFA is on any given day your results may be different depending on the three Dr that read your x-ray and the positioning of your dog it is so subjecting. If the position of your dog is off you could go from a good OFA to a Moderate result please see video below.


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post #52 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 06:32 PM
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opps tried to repost same info
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post #53 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 07:00 PM
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I agree with k9 Design about PennHip... Four problems I have with them being the sole source of a hip clearance. They are 1)no way to verify the data on line 2)age at which you can get the final evaluation 3)no pass or fail, just a DI which IMO is up to breeder interpretation on what is considered acceptable 4) no way to look up statistics for a particular breed. The vet who does it here in Maine says he cannot divulge those results to anyone, including a fellow veterinarian.

I also agree with k9Design, send all of your results in then there is no need for interpretation or misinformation.

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post #54 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 08:23 PM
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Wyatt, the father of the current litter was bred before he got his elbow clearance. There is no PENNHIP equivalent for elbows. His clearances are listed on November 12th and the pups were born on October 22th.

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post #55 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 08:38 PM
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To SunnyCPE, I guess where some of the rabid interrogation comes from is that some of us were involved in breeding after we were involved with goldens in performance or conformation events...not the other way around.... If you, as a breeder, were involved as a member of a club, you would know the clearance expectations...

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post #56 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 08:51 PM
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Actually, that video... On any given day the results can vary... If the pelvis is straight and the patellas are paralell,it is really not a lot up to supposition... The one girl I have that is fair is one of the soundest dogs Iwill ever own. I took her rads two days after her sister aborted a litter and she was not out of heat for one week. I gave her a drug, just to sedate her and she ended up barfing everything in her system... I was so afraid that I didn't clean her mouth out enough and she would aspirate, so I took,her pictures. She had horrible relaxation and I was ok with a fair. All of the others have had general anesthesia and gotten "goods". I thought about retaking the rad, but she is sound....

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post #57 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Sally's Mom View Post
To SunnyCPE, I guess where some of the rabid interrogation comes from is that some of us were involved in breeding after we were involved with goldens in performance or conformation events...not the other way around.... If you, as a breeder, were involved as a member of a club, you would know the clearance expectations...
thats hte thing that always bugs me is the putting the cart before the horse... the I am going to be a breeder.... they are not involved in the breed, they don't understand structure, they haven't learned what they need to do, they don't understand clearances and COI, they don't have a mentor but darn it they are gonna breed.... because their dogs are nice and puppies are cute. Do they love their dogs ?? I am sure they do but they haven't a clue what they are doing and they learn along the way... and then might compete later or not... drives me nuts...

I find this funny because breeding is my least favorite thing to do... I do it for the next generation but honestly I find the whole process stressful... from the finding a stud dog, to the breeding which can be risky, to watching my girl get bigger and bigger and hoping that everything will be ok in the whelping to having pups that fade and die or have birth defects (and it happens even when you do it all right) and finding families I trust etc etc... sure puppies are cute but honestly every time I breed I get a week out from whelping and think to myself "what was I thinking?" I am so afraid for my girl and what if something goes wrong and something happens to her and are the puppies gonna be ok ??? and and and I can't imagine doing this wihtout an experienced mentor holding my hand... and even now after whelping a bunch of litters of my own and for someone else it scares me to death... I honestly just don't get it...

Every time you breed a litter you take a risk with your beloved dog... every time... you never know what will happen... and to risk your girl because you think you are going to make a couple bucks is beyond me... absolutely beyond me

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post #58 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 09:48 PM
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It's important to remember that that video is about how you can ruin a good hip score with a bad rad, not that OFA is capricious or unreliable. You also can't turn a bad hip into a good one with positioning.

As far as PennHIP, I'm happy to see it done ON TOP OF regular OFA clearances, but since they don't have an open database, I don't like to see it in lieu of OFA. Get the final OFAs. If you got a bad rad and a fail or a fair, then get a new rad.

Comet got a fair, but the positioning is pretty bad. Given the number of goods and excellents in his siblings and vertical pedigree, there's every change he'd get a good if it were redone. He's not a breeding dog, but I may get them redone at some point anyway.
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post #59 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 09:52 PM
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Last year, I had my first ever c section in one of my girls...so stressful for the humans ...it was with a bitch with one prior litter of eight with no problems... So potentially,not a huge risk.. An emergency c section is no joke and if you do not know what to look for in a distressed bitch, then you should not be considering breeding..

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post #60 of 107 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 01:30 AM
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To SunnyCPE, If you, as a breeder, were involved as a member of a club, you would know the clearance expectations...
Ummm she is a member of the pacific rim golden retriever club in good standing. one question how do you know for cretin that that she was not showing and or doing performance work with her dogs before breeding?? answer you don't!!
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