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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:08 PM
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I think everyone understands that with a living and breathing being there is no guarantee. Particularly when external factors can impact a puppy's health and growth. I have also had a puppy (our Chloe) who came from generations of health clearances and ended up with moderate HD (although I think that was a kind rating since our radiologist said she thought it was severe) with skin issues. Her HD was causing so many issues for her in living in a multi-dog household, that the best thing to do was have her be an only dog and live with my parents. It has worked out well since we see her regularly, but it was devastating for me and my husband.

Even after going through that experience with Chloe, I will never attempt to minimize the importance of health clearances nor would I try to be a pessimist every time someone mentions health clearances stacking the deck in a puppy's favor. It's just unnecessary and unsuspecting puppy buyers posting and perusing these forums read it as "oh, I guess health clearances don't matter!" I don't think that's your intent at all, but you need to understand how it's being interpreted.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nairb View Post
With all due respect, why do you believe it is not just as unethical to breed a dog without first checking for diseases or structural problems? I don't think anyone is saying that clearances are an iron clad guarantee. I don't understand why you're going down this road.
I simply want people to know that there is no guarantee. Unless you find something wrong with that statement?
It wasn't for us and many other people on this forum.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenjackpuppy View Post
I think everyone understands that with a living and breathing being there is no guarantee. Particularly when external factors can impact a puppy's health and growth. I have also had a puppy (our Chloe) who came from generations of health clearances and ended up with moderate HD (although I think that was a kind rating since our radiologist said she thought it was severe) with skin issues. Her HD was causing so many issues for her in living in a multi-dog household, that the best thing to do was have her be an only dog and live with my parents. It has worked out well since we see her regularly, but it was devastating for me and my husband.

Even after going through that experience with Chloe, I will never attempt to minimize the importance of health clearances nor would I try to be a pessimist every time someone mentions health clearances stacking the deck in a puppy's favor. It's just unnecessary and unsuspecting puppy buyers posting and perusing these forums read it as "oh, I guess health clearances don't matter!" I don't think that's your intent at all, but you need to understand how it's being interpreted.
I am glad you get to see Chloe. We were somewhat more lucky. We got to see our pup until the day he died in May 2005. He licked my hand with his last breath. DH went thru 8 years of seizures out of which 2 were petite mal seizures. That was on top of the bad hips and allergies. He still wakes up at night thinking "Oh no another seizure", and after him DH would not train another one. He buried all training books and equipment that he never even had a chance to use with Troopie.

I would not advocate against health clearances, but I would advocate that a pup is a family member and life is not always rosy and they will not just pass thru shows and bring titles home (as described above by another member).

I want people to know that there is no guarantee and better think twice before they make that commitment to bring that pup home.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Claudia M View Post
I simply want people to know that there is no guarantee. Unless you find something wrong with that statement?
It wasn't for us and many other people on this forum.
I don't believe I've ever seen one of our members state or even imply that 'clearances=guaranteed good health'. The deal here is that we do not give the appearance that we ever support a breeder who doesn't take every possible opportunity, to minimize the occurrence of hereditary health issues in the puppies they bring into this world.

Following the GRCA code of ethics is the most basic way of working toward the goal of producing as few Goldens as possible with the horrible health problems that we can now test for. No, having the best odds possible won't save every single dog owner from grief. But by reducing the percentages of dogs born with these issues it does guarantee that a smaller number of dogs will suffer down the road - and that is really the point. The statistics are in black and white on OFA's website. I've learned a lot listening to some of these folks and this is one of the things I am most grateful for becoming informed - health issues.


http://www.offa.org/ed_faqs.html


Example 1:

Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:09 PM
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What is the probability of Excellent Hips bred with Normal Hips to give Bad Hips?
What is the probability of your pup to develop seizures at a young age?

Do you not agree that people need to make not only informed but also realistic decisions and think twice before committing to bring a puppy home?

Some people will get the end of the "probability stick" and they need to be aware.

I give the breeder all the credit, while our pups father has 121 offsprings on OFA (alone) after our pup's birth it does not show anymore breeding with the same female dog - at least on the OFA. And YES - that is EXACTLY what a reputable breeder would do. They would stop breeding to that particular combination.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:35 PM
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http://www.offa.org/pdf/monograph_2012_web.pdf

Page 8 & 9

I'm sorry, the tables won't copy, but the information is extremely interesting and worth your time in reading. And I absolutely agree that people need to make an informed decision when they make a commitment to bringing a dog home. It would be nice if more people found this website and studied the GRCA website before bringing home a Golden, it would probably prevent a lot of heartache on many things in life if people were more informed.

People on this site do an excellent job of promoting the idea of getting a Golden from either a reputable breeder or a rescue. I think most adults are aware that there are no guarantees in life, most of us learn it the hard way, we assume that there may be risk but that it happens to someone else, never to me. It is important to recognize the laws of genetics may not save every owner, but they can be used to gradually reduce the numbers of dogs who are suffering in pain with health issues that might have been avoided.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:48 PM
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I have heard some breeders say that they do not like extremes when it comes to hips. An OFA excellent is considered by some to be extreme since it is not common in Goldens. My unilaterally mildly dysplastic bitch had a maternal grandfather with Excellent hips. A tech I work with had a FAIR bitch from an Excellent X Good combo. My bitch that had hip dysplasia remained sound until she died from cancer. She got a UD and was showing in Rally Excellent two weeks before she died. She was also an OFA Fair at 24 months. Go figure. I believe that part of her soundness came from the solid soundness of her ancestors, where not just parents and grandparents had clearances, but their siblings had clearances as well.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:12 PM
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My point exactly Sally - you can get one Excellent, one FAIR and seven GOOD from an EXCELLENT x GOOD combo and you can get seven GOOD and 2 FAIR from a FAIR x GOOD combo. I call it the luck of the draw.
Just like not all litters will have show potential pups.
LJack made it sound like it was a breeze owning a pup and I felt I had to pitch in a little reality drop in there.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LJack View Post
AllisonK thank you for sharing your experience. All the things you are talking about are why I LOVE this breed! I think my girl is about the same age as yours. She is so smart it is amazing. We actually took and passed the CGC at 7 months on the fly. We were showing in conformation and a friend of mine said they had a slot open right right before hers. We literally jogged right from the breed ring to the evaluator, borrowed a buckle collar and nailed it.

I hope you have many happy and healthy years with your girl.

I really do wish that the information on the web site was more clear. Honestly, you can not verify much of the clearances she is stating she has on many of her dogs. It would be very helpful to have the registered name in addition to the call name as it would remedy the lack of verifiable clearances. She has a Bradley x Spring litter coming up and I was not able to find Spring at all and I tried everything I could think of. It makes it very difficult for puppy buyers who need to do their due diligence on clearance verification when just call names are given. I am hoping they are really doing the core four as they state on the website, but no matter who you buy from always verify the clearances.

Personally, for the asking price I would prefer full clearences and that the parents were doing something like UKC shows, obiedence, field, agility, tracking, or rally.
OK here is the original post from LJack that you deride and nowhere does it say anything of what you are talking about... nowhere does it make it sound like its all peachy... nowhere does it say that clearances guarantee no problems... it is in your very next post that you go on about clearances and how they don't matter and its all luck of the draw....
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:11 PM
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yup - that is exactly the post I was referring to.
How many parents on this forum alone who go to n amount of classes and have reputable dogs do you think passed the CGC "on the fly" or simply paraphrasing "jogged into the conformation ring with a borrowed collar and nailed it"???
Really? Sorry if I do not buy it.

I will PM you Troopie's dad and pedigree if you promise not to reveal it in public.
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